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User:Rjf/Tiger Scooter

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I purchased this Tiger 24v electric scooter from EVs North West, with detachable seat and storage basket. It came with a 400watt motor which was later upgraded to 500watts after the original failed. The stock battery consisted of a pair of 10Ah UPS type sealed lead-acid batteries which delivered about 2-5 miles of range weighing ~15lbs. With the #LGQ Pack I've built out of 96 small Lithium-Ion cells, which are housed in the little black and yellow toolbox hanging off the side like a saddle bag, I now have 10 miles of range from a battery that weighs less than 10 lbs. I also experimented with a severely undersized battery pack consisting of Laptop 18650 cells, and an even shorter lived set of consumer AA NiMH cells. The current LGQ pack is properly sized and appears to be working very will, a test cell from this set now has some 180 cycles and still delivers 90% of it's original capacity. The latest addition is a #Milwaukee V28 Pack which gives me an additional 2.5 miles, it's handy to bring along for "emergency range" or to use while the main pack is being charged.

24V Tiger scooter
24V Tiger scooter
Speedo, Amps, and Volts
Speedo, Amps, and Volts

[edit] Lead Acid Pack

The scooter was origonally equipt with a pair of 7.28 lb. 10Ah 12v batteries, similar to these.

[edit] Milwaukee V28 Pack

Ryobi 18v NiMH  Milwaukee V28 Li
Ryobi 18v NiMH
Milwaukee V28 Li

These Milwaukee Li battery packs are composed of 7 cells in series, have 3.0Ah (0.084kWh) of capacity, and weigh 2.33lbs (37.3oz). They should deliver 40A through the stock BMS and perhaps up to or over 100A if bypassed. The pack measures 28.9v with a full charge, and the work light turns itself off at 25.9v. This is also the point at which the first battery level indicator blinks, indicating empty. The pack's dimensions are 3-1/4" tall by 5" long by 3-1/2" wide.

  • Battery pack made up of 7 cells is 3Ah, 2.5Lbs ship weight, $118.50, Mfr. Model # 48-11-2830
  • 1 hour charger is 2.2Lbs, $47.5, Mfr. Model # 48-59-2801.
  • WorkLight is 1.3Lbs, $27.75 (cheap source for battery socket?), Mfr. Model # 49-24-0185.

[edit] Cycles

  • Charge - <0:45 min Initial ( 3.75A = 3.0Ah )
  • Dischg - ~5:30 min light 8-A331 28v ( 0.55A = 15Watts )
  • Charge - <1:00 min 1.15A, 0.08kWh, 0.74pf @kWmeter
  • Dischg - ~5:30 min work light
  • Charge - <0:10 min 2 bars
  • Dischg - Ride on scooter, dump charge from LGQ pack, ok
  • Charge - from 2bars to full overnight 0.07kWh @kWmeter
  • Dischg - Ride arround campus < 1mile, down to 2or3 bars
  • Charge - from 2bars to full overnight 0.05kWh @kWmeter
  • Dischg - Ride 2.23 miles, till dead, slightly warm
  • Charge - Overnight, 0.10kWh @kWmeter (44.8 Wh/mile or 22.3 miles/kWh)
  • Dischg - Ride 2.63 miles, till dead.
  • Charge - 0:51 min, 0.08kWh @kWmeter (30.4 Wh/mile or 32.9 miles/kWh)
  • Dischg - Ride 2.36 miles, till dead, with Mail
  • Charge - 0:51 min, 0.08kWh @kWmeter (33.9 Wh/mile or 29.5 miles/kWh)
  • Dischg - Ride 0.493 miles, 3 round trips inside.
  • Charge - <0:31 min, 0.02kWh @kWmeter (40.6 Wh/mile or 24.6 miles/kWh)
  • Dischg - Ride 1.684 miles, Brian, left "on" for an hour or so.
  • Charge - <0:45 min, 0.08kWh @kWmeter (47.5 Wh/mile or 21.1 miles/kWh)

[edit] Images

Stock Boot
Stock Boot
Open Boot
Open Boot
New cable
New cable
New cable
New cable

[edit] PHEV App

Series & Parallel Voltages, Capacity, and Range (Car @ 3miles/kWh)
S/PVolt Range 1 2P 4P 8P Range @8P Cost @8P
  Car Scooter Retail $
1 25.9v - 29.4v 75Wh 150Wh 300Wh 600Wh 2 24 $960
2S 51.8v - 58.8v 150Wh300Wh 600Wh 1.20 kWh3 48 $1920
3S 77.7v - 88.2v 225Wh450Wh 900Wh 1.80 kWh5 72 $2880
4S 103.6v - 117.6v300Wh600Wh 1.20 kWh2.40 kWh7 96 $3840
5S 129.5v - 147.0v375Wh750Wh 1.50 kWh3.00 kWh9 120 $4800
6S 155.4v - 176.4v450Wh900Wh 1.80 kWh3.60 kWh10144 $5760
7S 181.3v - 205.8v525Wh1.05 kWh2.10 kWh4.20 kWh12168 $6720
8S 207.2v - 235.2v600Wh1.20 kWh2.40 kWh4.80 kWh14192 $7680
9S 233.1v - 264.6v675Wh1.35 kWh2.70 kWh5.40 kWh16216 $8640
10S259.0v - 294.0v750Wh1.50 kWh3.00 kWh6.00 kWh18240 $9600
  • Potential applications in existing HEVs. Current Hybrids use 6.5Ah cells, although they only use 40-50% of that capacity, so these 3.0Ah cells may deliver the same ammount of energy at greater discharge levels. They come unconfortably close to the required power levels, however with a set of 2 Parallel capacity would exceed the origional pack and power requirements easily satisfied.
    • Honda IMA's @ 144v (120 NiMH cells) might use 5S @ 129.5v - 147.0v (35 cells)
    • Honda IMA's @ 144v (120 NiMH cells) might use 6S @ 155.4v - 176.4v (42 cells)
    • Prius 2004+ @ 201v (168 NiMH cells) might use 7S @ 181.3v - 205.8v (49 cells)
    • Prius 2004+ @ 201v (168 NiMH cells) might use 8S @ 207.2v - 235.2v (56 cells)

[edit] LGQ Pack

image from source.
image from source.

I assembled 96 individual cells into 2 blocks each one composed of 12 cells in parallel by 4 strings in series and weighing 4.01 lbs. Each block is roughly equivalently to a 12v 12.6Ah battery. Keep in mind that the blocks are series/parallel switched themselves from parallel 12v @25.2Ah to series 24v @12.6Ah. This is done to accommodate charging them in parallel mode at 12v which is the limit of my charger. However when riding they are switched into series mode to deliver 24v to the scooter. The actual fully charged voltage is close to 30v which gives the scooter slightly more top speed than the stock PbA batteries, since in a motor voltage is directly proportional to RPMs. This pack delivers about 10 miles of range and weighs 8.9 lbs including the toolbox and wiring.

Rectangular A&TB 1050mAh Cells LGQ863448H (Electronics Goldmine $1/cell #G14116) Source

Compact 3.6V 1050mAH Li-Ion Battery - G14116
*** THIS ITEM IS NOW SOLD OUT *** Compact lithium ion battery is rated
3.6VDC at 1050mAH.  Size is only 1.83"L x 1.33"W x 0.343" Thick. Weighs
only 38 grams so it is a powerful yet compact and lightweight battery
that can be used in RC park flyers, robots, RC Planes, etc. Can be
recharged over and over again. Made by A&TB of Japan. Very high quality.
Part# LGQ863448H. Blowout price on this prime brand new battery! Hurry
while supplies last on this very impressive high energy density battery.
G14116 HURRY - SPECIAL SALE PRICE!!!
Manufactured by A&TB of Japan
Price: $1.00 each

[edit] Charger

I can't afford a fully fledged analyzer [1]. So instead I use a Triton (Red, $124) and a GWS (just below the Triton, $44). I got the GWS first for charging NiMH for my first trainer plane, It also made my Air Surfer (toy plane) a lot more fun as the "Dumb" field charger it comes with, changing it from a boring to a fun toy [2].

Triton Details: [3]
I would recommend the Triton, or perhaps some of the other smart computerized chargers, mine will do 1-24 Ni(CD or MH) cells, 1-4 Li-ion cells, and 6, 12, and 24v Lead-acid batteries up to 5 Amps. It will also cycle and log (until the battery is disconnected) mAh and average voltage (on discharge). Lithium is limited to 2.5Amps of charge which is a bummer when charging the Scooters 25Ah pack (ie: up to 10 or more hours for a full charge, which could take as little as 1.5 hours, or a half hour to 80% if the charger were capable of delivering more power. It is capable of delivering plenty of current to the single test cell which can typically be fully charged in 60 to 90 minutes.

[edit] Cycles

  • Single Block #1
    • Charge+ 3442mAh @2.5A (2004.06.01)
    • Discharge-11255mAh @1.2A :521 Charge+11143mAh @2.5A :450 Cycle 1
    • Discharge-11280mAh @1.2A :522 Charge+11267mAh @2.5A :425 Cycle 2
    • Discharge-11330mAh @1.2A :525 Charge+11260mAh @2.5A :425 Cycle 3
    • Discharge-11276mAh @1.2A :524 Charge+11192mAh @2.5A :442 Cycle 3.1
    • Discharge-11275mAh @1.2A :524 Charge+11191mAh @2.5A :446 Cycle 3.2
  • Single Block #2
    • Charge+ 3624mAh @2.5A :237
    • Discharge-11414mAh @1.2A :531 Charge+11231mAh @2.5A :433 Cycle 1
    • Discharge-11330mAh @1.2A :560 Charge+11164mAh @2.5A :436 Cycle 2
    • Discharge-11291mAh @1.2A :425 Charge+11202mAh @2.5A :437 Cycle 3
  • Combined Block #1 & #2
  • Discharge-22633mAh @1.2A :1130 rcalcCharge+21926mAh @2.5A :602 (@0.5A 21500mAh) Cycle 4
  • Discharge-10 miles Charge+22000mAh @2.5A End at 0.4A :658 Cycle 5 (2004.06.20)
    • (18650) Charge+ 2020mAh :117 Cycle 35
  • Discharge-Rode ~7 miles Charge+18171mAh :650 (111 degree F in Sun at rest) Cycle 6
    • New Rear Tire! (18650) Charge+ 536mAh :109 Cycle 36
  • Discharge-Rode ~2 miles Charge+10866mAh :493 (@0.5A 10145mAh :321) Cycle 7
  • Discharge-Rode < 1 mile Charge+ 2127mAh :235 Cycle 8
  • Discharge-Rode 4 miles Charge+ 5605mAh :321 (@0.5A 4883mAh :191) Cycle 9 (2004.06.17)
  • Discharge-Rode to Seattle Center Charge+ 5845mAh :379 Cycle 10 (2004.06.20)
  • Discharge-Rode ~7 miles to pick up car Charge+11335mAh :527 Cycle 11
    • (18650) Charge+ 1321mAh :178 Cycle 37
  • Discharge-Rode 16 Miles (4 on 18650, 2 on Pba) Charge+22338mAh :747 Cycle 12
    • (18650) Charge+ 7003mAh :335 Cycle 38
  • Discharge-Rode at Greenwood Show Charge+ 6042mAh :340 Cycle 13
  • Discharge-Rode 76, Seattle Center, left on 24h Charge+18206mAh :665 Cycle 14
  • Discharge-22269mAh :1024 (Test Cycle @1.2A) Charge+22575mAh :755 Cycle 15
  • Discharge-Rode to 76(0.8m) + 2.3 mile Charge+ 6883mAh :410 (1.110 Ah / mile) Cycle 16
  • Discharge-Rode 10.58 Miles (Fixed Spedo) Charge+19541mAh :668 (0.923 Ah / mile) Cycle 17
  • Discharge-Rode 0.9 + 0.9 = 1.8miles Charge+ 4213mAh :275 (1.170 Ah / mile) Cycle 18 (2004.06.20)
  • Discharge-Led Strip on for about 20 days Charge+ 3000mAh :?? 10129mAh? Cycle 19 (2004.09.19)
  • Discharge-Left on for a 24 hours Charge+ 9095mAh :512 Cycle 20
  • Discharge-Rode at work Charge+enroute to woodburn Cycle 21 (2004.09.25)
  • Discharge-Rode at woodburn, odo broke Charge+ 7115mAh :440 Cycle 22
  • Discharge-2.17 Miles odo fixed Charge+ 4018mAh :349 (.926Ah(28Wh)/mile) Cycle 23 (2004.09)
  • Discharge-Rode? Cellphone, Sevcon+E-Tek tests Charge+16650mAh :999 Cycle 24
  • Discharge-Rode at work for months Charge+ 9300mAh :484 Cycle 25
  • Discharge-Rode at work (PbA went flat, get hot) Charge+14295mAh :640 Cycle 26
  • Discharge-Rode at work Charge+ 9333mAh :566 Cycle 27 (2005)
  • Discharge-Rode at work Charge+16469mAh :790 Cycle 28 (2006.02.15)
  • Discharge-Rode at work Charge+22235mAh :952 Cycle 29 (2006.03.24)
  • Discharge-Rode at work Charge+14974mAh :759 Cycle 30 (2006.04.20)
  • Discharge-Sat for years, rode, 4 Miles -623mAh Charge+24050mAh :833 (to 14.8v) Cycle 31 (2008.10.12)
    • Brought scooter home in 2007 where it was road every few months but mostly sat for years.
  • Discharge-23621mAh :1104 (@1.2-1.4A to 12.0v) Charge+21418mAh :949 (to 14.4v) Cycle 32 (2008.10.14)

[edit] Cycles TC1

These are the cycles for a single "Test Cell" from the batch of cells that makes up this pack. This may indicate the expected lifespan and capacity degradation for the full pack, baring any interconnect or balance issues which may otherwise shorten it. The temp rise during discharge at 2C to 2.5C for the first 10 cycles averaged 16.1°F ranging from 13-19°, oddly enough the temperature appeared to drop during the charge cycle by roughly the same amount.

Capacity Tests based on discharge rates (C=Cell Capacity (1050mAh)):
Rated-1050mAh -  100% - 12.600Ah (Full Pack Equivalent at Nameplate Capacity)
0.1C - 940mAh - 89.5% - 11.280Ah @1.26A
0.5C - 888mAh - 84.6% - 10.656Ah @6.30A
1.0C - 836mAh - 79.6% - 10.032Ah @12.6A
1.5C - 793mAh - 75.5% -  9.516Ah @18.9A
2.0C - 749mAh - 71.3% -  8.988Ah @25.2A
2.5C - 659mAh - 62.8% -  7.908Ah @31.5A

Data

[edit] Schematics

Wiring schematics go here...

  -Block #1+    ___-Block #2+___
 /          \  /                \
 |____      | |     /switch      \
      \     | |    / to -12       \   
-24___O   O \ O   O           O===O   O   O
      /   |__\________________    |   |    
     /    |   \               \   |   |    
-12_/ O   O   O===O           O   O   O   O
+12___|_______/                   |   \_______+24v
      \___________________________/
      nc  no  com coil     coil  com  no  nc

When "switch to -12" is connected to B#1- the B#1 Relay is energized.
B#1 Relay connects B#1+ to B#2-, and B#2 energizes B#2 Relay.
B#2 Relay connects B#2+ to the scooter motor controller for +24v.
This configuration ensures there is no load when off and B#1 & B#2 are in parallel.
When enabled B#1 and B#2 both power an identical relay ensuring that the two
Blocks are subjected to the same parasitic load as to stay in balance during operation.

[edit] Images

Construction process for LGQ's, 12 Parallel, 4 Series, 2 sets or blocks of cells...

[edit] 18650 Pack

Keep in mind that the Lithium packs do series/parallel switching from 12 to 24v to accomidate charging at 12v (4 series cells). However they are driven at 24v (8 series cells). As such the charging numbers should be divided in half for their proper 24v capacity... Graphs to come...

Sony 18650 1.3Ah Li-ions were Assymbled into two 5 parallel by 4 series cell blocks

[edit] Cycles

  • Charge 6687mAh @1.0A
  • Discharge 6455mAh @1.0A Charge 6301mAh @1.0A
  • Discharge 6020mAh @2.0A Charge 6182mAh @2.0A
  • Discharge 5608mAh @0.8A Charge 6540mAh @2.5A
  • Discharge 6080mAh @2.5A Charge 5948mAh
  • Discharge 5987mAh
  • Added Second Block, 8 series cells
  • Charge 11426mAh
  • Discharge 12470mAh @2.5A Charge 12565mAh @1.5A
  • Discharge 11232mAh @2.5A Charge 10094mAh @1.5A
  • Discharge 9040mAh @2.5A Charge 12202mAh @2.5A
  • Split Blocks, Block #1
  • Discharge 5916mAh @2.5A Charge 6100mAh
  • Split Blocks, Block #2
  • Discharge 5822mAh @2.5A Charge 5713mAh
  • Charge 6149mAh @1.0A
  • Discharge 5934mAh @1.0A Charge 5746mAh @1.0A
  • Discharge 5938mAh @1.0A Charge 5885mAh @1.0A
  • Discharge 2 miles Charge 3827mAh @2.5A
    • ( 0.957 Ah / mile ) (3.827Ah / 2 blocks / 2 miles )
  • Both Blocks #1 & #2
  • Discharge 10485mAh @1.4A Charge 10332mAh @2.5A
  • Discharge 2 miles Charge 3664mAh @2.5A
  • Discharge 5.5 miles Charge 10164mAh @2.5A ( 0.924 Ah/mile )
  • Discharge rode at work Charge 2570mAh @2.5A
  • Discharge 6.5 miles Charge 10503mAh @2.5A ( 0.808 Ah/mile )
  • Discharge 2 miles Charge 3347mAh @2.5A ( 0.837 Ah/mile ) Cycle 32
  • Discharge Rode Charge 2895mAh @1.0A Cycle 33
  • Discharge Rode Charge 5637mAh Cycle 34
  • Discharge Rode Charge 2020mAh :117 Cycle 35
  • Discharge Rode Charge 536mAh :109 Cycle 36
  • Discharge Rode Charge 1321mAh :178 Cycle 37
  • Discharge Rode Charge 7003mAh :335 Cycle 38
  • ( Dump Charge Test from Charged Li-ion to Dead PbA(5.5Ah Down) ) 4.2 to 4.6Ah from Li

[edit] Images

A single 18650 Li-ion cell.
A single 18650 Li-ion cell.
Single pair of 18650 Li-ion cells, and their management circuit.
Single pair of 18650 Li-ion cells, and their management circuit.
The full pack 5-Parallel 8-Series, with series/parallel and main relays.
The full pack 5-Parallel 8-Series, with series/parallel and main relays.

[edit] Dunno Prismatic Cells

image from source.
image from source.

These cells are identical to my Motorola Timeport Cell phone cell. source

3.6V Lithium Ion Battery (Pkg of 2) - G14673
*** THIS ITEM IS NOW SOLD OUT ***3.6V 1050MmAH. Compact 1.83"L x 1.33"W x 0.343"
thick metal case powerful lithium ion battery. Great for robotics, RC park flyers,
RC cars, etc. New - can be recharged over and over. Package of 2. G14673
Manufactured by -no info available
Price: $0.75 each

Rectangular Unknown 1050mAh Cells M08134B(A)(J)(H) (Electronics Goldmine $0.75/cell #G14673) Ten Individualy Numbered Cells (41,42,43,44,45H, 72,73,74H, 42J, 83A)

[edit] Cycles

  • Cell 83(A)
    • Charge+505mAh:129
    • Discharge-643mAh (151mAh @2.0A, 417mAh @1.0A, 75mAh @0.5A) Charge+674mAh:135 Cycle 1
    • Discharge-603mAh @1.0A:35 Charge+581mAh:110 Cycle 2
    • Discharge-632mAh @1.0A:37 Charge+837mAh (3.7v):125 Cycle 3
    • Discharge-826mAh @1.0A:49 Charge+804mAh (3.7v):129 Cycle 4
    • Discharge-844mAh @1.0A:50 Charge+847mAh (3.7v):118 Cycle 5
    • Discharge-847mAh (570mAh @2.0A :17, 277mAh @1.0A :16) Charge+832mAh:115 Cycle 6
  • Cell 42(J)
    • Charge+524mAh:135
    • Discharge-665mAh (200mAh @2.0A, 386mAh @1.0A, 79mAh @0.5A) Charge+717mAh @0.7A:139 Cycle 1
    • Discharge-658mAh @1.0A:39 Charge+629mAh:156 Cycle 2
    • Discharge-649mAh @1.0A:38 Charge+591mAh @0.7A:109 Cycle 3
    • Discharge-619mAh @1.0A:36 Charge+622mAh @0.8A:109 Cycle 4
    • Discharge-617mAh @1.0A:36 Charge+517mAh:119 Cycle 5
    • Discharge-625mAh @1.0A:37 Charge+742mAh:156 Cycle 6
  • Cell 45(H)
    • Charge+488mAh:124
    • Discharge-631mAh (163mAh @2.0A, 381mAh @1.0A, 87mAh @0.5A) Charge+657mAh @0.6A:136 Cycle 1
    • Discharge-643mAh @1.0A:38 Charge+724mAh @0.7A:156 Cycle 2
    • Discharge-693mAh @1.0A:41 Charge+642mAh:128 Cycle 3
    • Discharge-642mAh @1.0A:38 Charge+663mAh:173 Cycle 4
    • Discharge-722mAh @1.0A:42 Charge+736mAh:153 Cycle 5
    • Discharge-751mAh (560mAh @2.0A :16, 191mAh @1.0A :11) Charge+721mAh:145 Cycle 6
    • Discharge-...

I Believe that this is the same battery used in an old Motorola Timeport Cellphone that I purchased Dec. 7 2000. This phone was used for about 9 months durring which time it went for a swim in a lake, shorting out and overheating, but it did continue to work. It sat unused for about 2 years. (See the photos on the right side) Now, Oct. 2004, being some 3 years old I'm cycling it to see how it compaires to the above cells...

  • Discharge 567mAh @0.7A :47 Charge+631:160 to 3.6v
  • Discharge 562mAh @1.0A :33 Charge+493:138
  • Discharge 503mAh @1.0A :29 Charge+450:133
  • Discharge 457mAh @1.0A :27 Charge+450:146
  • Discharge 477mAh @1.0A :28 Charge+442:135
  • Discharge 462mAh @1.0A :27 Charge+596:138 to 3.7v
  • Discharge 652mAh @1.0A :38 Charge+659:125
  • Discharge 654mAh @1.0A :38 Charge+597:137
  • Discharge 590mAh @1.0A :35 Charge+632:137
  • Discharge 667mAh @1.0A :39 Charge+636:143
  • Discharge 647mAh @1.0A :38 Charge+616:143

[edit] Images

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