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Difference between revisions of "User:Rjf/Tiger Scooter"
(→Charger: found working GWS Triton product link) 
(→LGQ Pack: Ran across this gem of a post to the evdl circa: [https://www.mailarchive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg04840.html Jun 16, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Lightning Ryan wrote].) 

Line 111:  Line 111:  
Manufactured by A&TB of Japan  Manufactured by A&TB of Japan  
Price: $1.00 each  Price: $1.00 each  
+  
+  Ran across this gem of a post to the evdl circa: [https://www.mailarchive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg04840.html Jun 16, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Lightning Ryan wrote].  
===Charger===  ===Charger=== 
Latest revision as of 00:38, 12 July 2020
I purchased this Tiger 24v electric scooter from EVs North West, (Product Page) with detachable seat and storage basket. It came with a 400watt motor which was later upgraded to 500watts after the original failed. The stock battery consisted of a pair of 10Ah UPS type sealed leadacid batteries which delivered about 25 miles of range weighing ~15lbs. With the #LGQ Pack I've built out of 96 small LithiumIon cells, which are housed in the little black and yellow toolbox hanging off the side like a saddle bag, I now have 10 miles of range from a battery that weighs less than 10 lbs. I also experimented with a severely undersized battery pack consisting of Laptop 18650 cells, and an even shorter lived set of consumer AA NiMH cells. The current LGQ pack is properly sized and appears to be working very will, a test cell from this set now has some 180 cycles and still delivers 90% of it's original capacity. The latest addition is a #Milwaukee V28 Pack which gives me an additional 2.5 miles, it's handy to bring along for "emergency range" or to use while the main pack is being charged.
Lead Acid Pack
The scooter was origonally equipt with a pair of 7.28 lb. 10Ah 12v batteries, similar to these.
Headway LiFePO4 Battery Kit
Per evcomponents.com 24V 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Battery Kit and similar: 12Ah, 15Ah, 48V, 60V, 72V Kits with Cells:
 Headway 38120S(10Ah) ** Weight (Approx.) 338g ** Dimensions (mm) Diameter 38±1 Height 132±1 ** Max. continuous discharging current 10C(100A) ** Recommended Constant Discharge 1C(10A)5C(50A) ** Recommended charging current 0.3C(3A)0.5C(5A) Max:1C(10A)
 Headway 38140S(12Ah) ** Weight (Approx.) 400g ** Dimensions (mm) Diameter 38±1 Height 152±1 ** Max. continuous discharging current 10C(120A) ** Recommended Constant Discharge 1C(12A)5C(60A) ** Recommended charging current 0.3C(5A)0.5C(7.5A) Max:1C(12A)
 Headway 40152S(15Ah) ** Weight (Approx.) 480g ** Dimensions (mm) Diameter 40±1 Height 174±1 ** Max. continuous discharging current 10C(150A) ** Recommended Constant Discharge 1C(15A)5C(75A) ** Recommended charging current 0.3C(5A)0.5C(7.5A) Max:1C(15A)
 Chemical composition LiFePO4(lithium iron phosphate) ** Rated voltage 3.2V ** Energy density 105 (Wh/kg) ** Battery internal resistance≤5mΩ ** Self discharge rate (monthly) 23% ** Standard. charging voltage 3.65±0.05V ** Max. End discharged cut off voltage 2.0V ** Working temperature: Charging 0~45℃ : Discharging 20~65℃ ** Storage temperature: In one month 20~45℃ : In six months 20~35℃
 @20180106  Got some used cells of 8Ah for $160.96 ($10 each). However it appears I will not be able to assemble a full 16(s)eries 48V string. Two(s) were "soft" and could not deliver over nor accept more than about 1A or 0.125C (ie: 1/8 (C)apacity 1 Hour Rate). After initial cycle tests one of those I physically broke attempting to remove a threadall stub which leaked liquid electrolyte, the other soft cell also had the stub and no others did. The remaining still matched up well as three descent 4s 5~6Ah blocks and a pair of matched lowest capacity cells.
 Ordered: Headway 38120S 38140S 38120HP 2 hole holder (orange plastic end cap pair with locking edges). & 2 holes connector for headway 38120S & 38140S cell (Cut and finished buss bars).
Milwaukee V28 Pack
These Milwaukee Li battery packs are composed of 7 cells in series, have 3.0Ah (0.084kWh) of capacity, and weigh 2.33lbs (37.3oz). They should deliver 40A through the stock BMS and perhaps up to or over 100A if bypassed. The pack measures 28.9v with a full charge, and the work light turns itself off at 25.9v. This is also the point at which the first battery level indicator blinks, indicating empty. The pack's dimensions are 31/4" tall by 5" long by 31/2" wide.
 Battery pack made up of 7 cells is 3Ah, 2.5Lbs ship weight, $118.50, Mfr. Model # 48112830
 1 hour charger is 2.2Lbs, $47.5, Mfr. Model # 48592801.
 WorkLight is 1.3Lbs, $27.75 (cheap source for battery socket?), Mfr. Model # 49240185.
Cycles
 Charge  <0:45 min Initial ( 3.75A = 3.0Ah )
 Dischg  ~5:30 min light 8A331 28v ( 0.55A = 15Watts )
 Charge  <1:00 min 1.15A, 0.08kWh, 0.74pf @kWmeter
 Dischg  ~5:30 min work light
 Charge  <0:10 min 2 bars
 Dischg  Ride on scooter, dump charge from LGQ pack, ok
 Charge  from 2bars to full overnight 0.07kWh @kWmeter
 Dischg  Ride arround campus < 1mile, down to 2or3 bars
 Charge  from 2bars to full overnight 0.05kWh @kWmeter
 Dischg  Ride 2.23 miles, till dead, slightly warm
 Charge  Overnight, 0.10kWh @kWmeter (44.8 Wh/mile or 22.3 miles/kWh)
 Dischg  Ride 2.63 miles, till dead.
 Charge  0:51 min, 0.08kWh @kWmeter (30.4 Wh/mile or 32.9 miles/kWh)
 Dischg  Ride 2.36 miles, till dead, with Mail
 Charge  0:51 min, 0.08kWh @kWmeter (33.9 Wh/mile or 29.5 miles/kWh)
 Dischg  Ride 0.493 miles, 3 round trips inside.
 Charge  <0:31 min, 0.02kWh @kWmeter (40.6 Wh/mile or 24.6 miles/kWh)
 Dischg  Ride 1.684 miles, Brian, left "on" for an hour or so.
 Charge  <0:45 min, 0.08kWh @kWmeter (47.5 Wh/mile or 21.1 miles/kWh)
Images
PHEV App
Series & Parallel Voltages, Capacity, and Range (Car @ 3miles/kWh)  
S/P  Volt Range  1  2P  4P  8P  Range @8P  Cost @8P  
Car  Scooter  Retail $  
1  25.9v  29.4v  75Wh  150Wh  300Wh  600Wh  2  24  $960 
2S  51.8v  58.8v  150Wh  300Wh  600Wh  1.20 kWh  3  48  $1920 
3S  77.7v  88.2v  225Wh  450Wh  900Wh  1.80 kWh  5  72  $2880 
4S  103.6v  117.6v  300Wh  600Wh  1.20 kWh  2.40 kWh  7  96  $3840 
5S  129.5v  147.0v  375Wh  750Wh  1.50 kWh  3.00 kWh  9  120  $4800 
6S  155.4v  176.4v  450Wh  900Wh  1.80 kWh  3.60 kWh  10  144  $5760 
7S  181.3v  205.8v  525Wh  1.05 kWh  2.10 kWh  4.20 kWh  12  168  $6720 
8S  207.2v  235.2v  600Wh  1.20 kWh  2.40 kWh  4.80 kWh  14  192  $7680 
9S  233.1v  264.6v  675Wh  1.35 kWh  2.70 kWh  5.40 kWh  16  216  $8640 
10S  259.0v  294.0v  750Wh  1.50 kWh  3.00 kWh  6.00 kWh  18  240  $9600 
 Potential applications in existing HEVs. Current Hybrids use 6.5Ah cells, although they only use 4050% of that capacity, so these 3.0Ah cells may deliver the same ammount of energy at greater discharge levels. They come unconfortably close to the required power levels, however with a set of 2 Parallel capacity would exceed the origional pack and power requirements easily satisfied.
 Honda IMA's @ 144v (120 NiMH cells) might use 5S @ 129.5v  147.0v (35 cells)
 Honda IMA's @ 144v (120 NiMH cells) might use 6S @ 155.4v  176.4v (42 cells)
 Prius 2004+ @ 201v (168 NiMH cells) might use 7S @ 181.3v  205.8v (49 cells)
 Prius 2004+ @ 201v (168 NiMH cells) might use 8S @ 207.2v  235.2v (56 cells)
LGQ Pack
I assembled 96 individual cells into 2 blocks each one composed of 12 cells in parallel by 4 strings in series and weighing 4.01 lbs. Each block is roughly equivalently to a 12v 12.6Ah battery. Keep in mind that the blocks are series/parallel switched themselves from parallel 12v @25.2Ah to series 24v @12.6Ah. This is done to accommodate charging them in parallel mode at 12v which is the limit of my charger. However when riding they are switched into series mode to deliver 24v to the scooter. The actual fully charged voltage is close to 30v which gives the scooter slightly more top speed than the stock PbA batteries, since in a motor voltage is directly proportional to RPMs. This pack delivers about 10 miles of range and weighs 8.9 lbs including the toolbox and wiring.
Rectangular A&TB 1050mAh Cells LGQ863448H (Electronics Goldmine $1/cell #G14116) Source
Compact 3.6V 1050mAH LiIon Battery  G14116 *** THIS ITEM IS NOW SOLD OUT *** Compact lithium ion battery is rated 3.6VDC at 1050mAH. Size is only 1.83"L x 1.33"W x 0.343" Thick. Weighs only 38 grams so it is a powerful yet compact and lightweight battery that can be used in RC park flyers, robots, RC Planes, etc. Can be recharged over and over again. Made by A&TB of Japan. Very high quality. Part# LGQ863448H. Blowout price on this prime brand new battery! Hurry while supplies last on this very impressive high energy density battery. G14116 HURRY  SPECIAL SALE PRICE!!! Manufactured by A&TB of Japan Price: $1.00 each
Ran across this gem of a post to the evdl circa: Jun 16, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Lightning Ryan wrote.
Charger
I can't afford a fully fledged analyzer [1]. So instead I use a Triton (Red, $124) and a GWS (just below the Triton, $44). I got the GWS first for charging NiMH for my first trainer plane, It also made my Air Surfer (toy plane) a lot more fun as the "Dumb" field charger it comes with, changing it from a boring to a fun toy [2].
Triton Details: GWS Triton
I would recommend the Triton, or perhaps some of the other smart computerized chargers, mine will do 124 Ni(CD or MH) cells, 14 Liion cells, and 6, 12, and 24v Leadacid batteries up to 5 Amps. It will also cycle and log (until the battery is disconnected) mAh and average voltage (on discharge). Lithium is limited to 2.5Amps of charge which is a bummer when charging the Scooters 25Ah pack (ie: up to 10 or more hours for a full charge, which could take as little as 1.5 hours, or a half hour to 80% if the charger were capable of delivering more power. It is capable of delivering plenty of current to the single test cell which can typically be fully charged in 60 to 90 minutes.
Cycles
 Single Block #1
 Charge+ 3442mAh @2.5A (2004.06.01)
 Discharge11255mAh @1.2A :521 Charge+11143mAh @2.5A :450 Cycle 1
 Discharge11280mAh @1.2A :522 Charge+11267mAh @2.5A :425 Cycle 2
 Discharge11330mAh @1.2A :525 Charge+11260mAh @2.5A :425 Cycle 3
 Discharge11276mAh @1.2A :524 Charge+11192mAh @2.5A :442 Cycle 3.1
 Discharge11275mAh @1.2A :524 Charge+11191mAh @2.5A :446 Cycle 3.2
 Single Block #2
 Charge+ 3624mAh @2.5A :237
 Discharge11414mAh @1.2A :531 Charge+11231mAh @2.5A :433 Cycle 1
 Discharge11330mAh @1.2A :560 Charge+11164mAh @2.5A :436 Cycle 2
 Discharge11291mAh @1.2A :425 Charge+11202mAh @2.5A :437 Cycle 3
 Combined Block #1 & #2
 Discharge22633mAh @1.2A :1130 rcalcCharge+21926mAh @2.5A :602 (@0.5A 21500mAh) Cycle 4
 Discharge10 miles Charge+22000mAh @2.5A End at 0.4A :658 Cycle 5 (2004.06.20)
 (18650) Charge+ 2020mAh :117 Cycle 35
 DischargeRode ~7 miles Charge+18171mAh :650 (111 degree F in Sun at rest) Cycle 6
 New Rear Tire! (18650) Charge+ 536mAh :109 Cycle 36
 DischargeRode ~2 miles Charge+10866mAh :493 (@0.5A 10145mAh :321) Cycle 7
 DischargeRode < 1 mile Charge+ 2127mAh :235 Cycle 8
 DischargeRode 4 miles Charge+ 5605mAh :321 (@0.5A 4883mAh :191) Cycle 9 (2004.06.17)
 DischargeRode to Seattle Center Charge+ 5845mAh :379 Cycle 10 (2004.06.20)
 DischargeRode ~7 miles to pick up car Charge+11335mAh :527 Cycle 11
 (18650) Charge+ 1321mAh :178 Cycle 37
 DischargeRode 16 Miles (4 on 18650, 2 on Pba) Charge+22338mAh :747 Cycle 12
 (18650) Charge+ 7003mAh :335 Cycle 38
 DischargeRode at Greenwood Show Charge+ 6042mAh :340 Cycle 13
 DischargeRode 76, Seattle Center, left on 24h Charge+18206mAh :665 Cycle 14
 Discharge22269mAh :1024 (Test Cycle @1.2A) Charge+22575mAh :755 Cycle 15
 DischargeRode to 76(0.8m) + 2.3 mile Charge+ 6883mAh :410 (1.110 Ah / mile) Cycle 16
 DischargeRode 10.58 Miles (Fixed Spedo) Charge+19541mAh :668 (0.923 Ah / mile) Cycle 17
 DischargeRode 0.9 + 0.9 = 1.8miles Charge+ 4213mAh :275 (1.170 Ah / mile) Cycle 18 (2004.06.20)
 DischargeLed Strip on for about 20 days Charge+ 3000mAh :?? 10129mAh? Cycle 19 (2004.09.19)
 DischargeLeft on for a 24 hours Charge+ 9095mAh :512 Cycle 20
 DischargeRode at work Charge+enroute to woodburn Cycle 21 (2004.09.25)
 DischargeRode at woodburn, odo broke Charge+ 7115mAh :440 Cycle 22
 Discharge2.17 Miles odo fixed Charge+ 4018mAh :349 (.926Ah(28Wh)/mile) Cycle 23 (2004.09)
 DischargeRode? Cellphone, Sevcon+ETek tests Charge+16650mAh :999 Cycle 24
 DischargeRode at work for months Charge+ 9300mAh :484 Cycle 25
 DischargeRode at work (PbA went flat, get hot) Charge+14295mAh :640 Cycle 26
 DischargeRode at work Charge+ 9333mAh :566 Cycle 27 (2005)
 DischargeRode at work Charge+16469mAh :790 Cycle 28 (2006.02.15)
 DischargeRode at work Charge+22235mAh :952 Cycle 29 (2006.03.24)
 DischargeRode at work Charge+14974mAh :759 Cycle 30 (2006.04.20)
 DischargeSat for years, rode, 4 Miles 623mAh Charge+24050mAh :833 (to 14.8v) Cycle 31 (2008.10.12)
 Brought scooter home in 2007 where it was road every few months but mostly sat for years.
 Discharge23621mAh :1104 (@1.21.4A to 12.0v) Charge+21418mAh :949 (to 14.4v) Cycle 32 (2008.10.14)
Cycles TC1
These are the cycles for a single "Test Cell" from the batch of cells that makes up this pack. This may indicate the expected lifespan and capacity degradation for the full pack, baring any interconnect or balance issues which may otherwise shorten it. The temp rise during discharge at 2C to 2.5C for the first 10 cycles averaged 16.1°F ranging from 1319°, oddly enough the temperature appeared to drop during the charge cycle by roughly the same amount.
Capacity Tests based on discharge rates (C=Cell Capacity (1050mAh)): Rated1050mAh  100%  12.600Ah (Full Pack Equivalent at Nameplate Capacity) 0.1C  940mAh  89.5%  11.280Ah @1.26A 0.5C  888mAh  84.6%  10.656Ah @6.30A 1.0C  836mAh  79.6%  10.032Ah @12.6A 1.5C  793mAh  75.5%  9.516Ah @18.9A 2.0C  749mAh  71.3%  8.988Ah @25.2A 2.5C  659mAh  62.8%  7.908Ah @31.5A
User:Rjf/Tiger_Scooter/LGQ_Pack_Cycles
Schematics
Wiring schematics go here...
Block #1+ ___Block #2+___ / \ / \ ____   /switch \ \   / to 12 \ 24___O O \ O O O===O O O / __\________________   /  \ \   12_/ O O O===O O O O O +12__________/  \_______+24v \___________________________/ nc no com coil coil com no nc When "switch to 12" is connected to B#1 the B#1 Relay is energized. B#1 Relay connects B#1+ to B#2, and B#2 energizes B#2 Relay. B#2 Relay connects B#2+ to the scooter motor controller for +24v. This configuration ensures there is no load when off and B#1 & B#2 are in parallel. When enabled B#1 and B#2 both power an identical relay ensuring that the two Blocks are subjected to the same parasitic load as to stay in balance during operation.
Images
Construction process for LGQ's, 12 Parallel, 4 Series, 2 sets or blocks of cells...
18650 Pack
Keep in mind that the Lithium packs do series/parallel switching from 12 to 24v to accomidate charging at 12v (4 series cells). However they are driven at 24v (8 series cells). As such the charging numbers should be divided in half for their proper 24v capacity... Graphs to come...
Sony 18650 1.3Ah Liions were Assymbled into two 5 parallel by 4 series cell blocks
Cycles
 Charge 6687mAh @1.0A
 Discharge 6455mAh @1.0A Charge 6301mAh @1.0A
 Discharge 6020mAh @2.0A Charge 6182mAh @2.0A
 Discharge 5608mAh @0.8A Charge 6540mAh @2.5A
 Discharge 6080mAh @2.5A Charge 5948mAh
 Discharge 5987mAh
 Added Second Block, 8 series cells
 Charge 11426mAh
 Discharge 12470mAh @2.5A Charge 12565mAh @1.5A
 Discharge 11232mAh @2.5A Charge 10094mAh @1.5A
 Discharge 9040mAh @2.5A Charge 12202mAh @2.5A
 Split Blocks, Block #1
 Discharge 5916mAh @2.5A Charge 6100mAh
 Split Blocks, Block #2
 Discharge 5822mAh @2.5A Charge 5713mAh
 Charge 6149mAh @1.0A
 Discharge 5934mAh @1.0A Charge 5746mAh @1.0A
 Discharge 5938mAh @1.0A Charge 5885mAh @1.0A
 Discharge 2 miles Charge 3827mAh @2.5A
 ( 0.957 Ah / mile ) (3.827Ah / 2 blocks / 2 miles )
 Both Blocks #1 & #2
 Discharge 10485mAh @1.4A Charge 10332mAh @2.5A
 Discharge 2 miles Charge 3664mAh @2.5A
 Discharge 5.5 miles Charge 10164mAh @2.5A ( 0.924 Ah/mile )
 Discharge rode at work Charge 2570mAh @2.5A
 Discharge 6.5 miles Charge 10503mAh @2.5A ( 0.808 Ah/mile )
 Discharge 2 miles Charge 3347mAh @2.5A ( 0.837 Ah/mile ) Cycle 32
 Discharge Rode Charge 2895mAh @1.0A Cycle 33
 Discharge Rode Charge 5637mAh Cycle 34
 Discharge Rode Charge 2020mAh :117 Cycle 35
 Discharge Rode Charge 536mAh :109 Cycle 36
 Discharge Rode Charge 1321mAh :178 Cycle 37
 Discharge Rode Charge 7003mAh :335 Cycle 38
 ( Dump Charge Test from Charged Liion to Dead PbA(5.5Ah Down) ) 4.2 to 4.6Ah from Li
Images
Dunno Prismatic Cells
These cells are identical to my Motorola Timeport Cell phone cell. source
3.6V Lithium Ion Battery (Pkg of 2)  G14673 *** THIS ITEM IS NOW SOLD OUT ***3.6V 1050MmAH. Compact 1.83"L x 1.33"W x 0.343" thick metal case powerful lithium ion battery. Great for robotics, RC park flyers, RC cars, etc. New  can be recharged over and over. Package of 2. G14673 Manufactured by no info available Price: $0.75 each
Rectangular Unknown 1050mAh Cells M08134B(A)(J)(H) (Electronics Goldmine $0.75/cell #G14673) Ten Individualy Numbered Cells (41,42,43,44,45H, 72,73,74H, 42J, 83A)
Cycles
 Cell 83(A)
 Charge+505mAh:129
 Discharge643mAh (151mAh @2.0A, 417mAh @1.0A, 75mAh @0.5A) Charge+674mAh:135 Cycle 1
 Discharge603mAh @1.0A:35 Charge+581mAh:110 Cycle 2
 Discharge632mAh @1.0A:37 Charge+837mAh (3.7v):125 Cycle 3
 Discharge826mAh @1.0A:49 Charge+804mAh (3.7v):129 Cycle 4
 Discharge844mAh @1.0A:50 Charge+847mAh (3.7v):118 Cycle 5
 Discharge847mAh (570mAh @2.0A :17, 277mAh @1.0A :16) Charge+832mAh:115 Cycle 6
 Cell 42(J)
 Charge+524mAh:135
 Discharge665mAh (200mAh @2.0A, 386mAh @1.0A, 79mAh @0.5A) Charge+717mAh @0.7A:139 Cycle 1
 Discharge658mAh @1.0A:39 Charge+629mAh:156 Cycle 2
 Discharge649mAh @1.0A:38 Charge+591mAh @0.7A:109 Cycle 3
 Discharge619mAh @1.0A:36 Charge+622mAh @0.8A:109 Cycle 4
 Discharge617mAh @1.0A:36 Charge+517mAh:119 Cycle 5
 Discharge625mAh @1.0A:37 Charge+742mAh:156 Cycle 6
 Cell 45(H)
 Charge+488mAh:124
 Discharge631mAh (163mAh @2.0A, 381mAh @1.0A, 87mAh @0.5A) Charge+657mAh @0.6A:136 Cycle 1
 Discharge643mAh @1.0A:38 Charge+724mAh @0.7A:156 Cycle 2
 Discharge693mAh @1.0A:41 Charge+642mAh:128 Cycle 3
 Discharge642mAh @1.0A:38 Charge+663mAh:173 Cycle 4
 Discharge722mAh @1.0A:42 Charge+736mAh:153 Cycle 5
 Discharge751mAh (560mAh @2.0A :16, 191mAh @1.0A :11) Charge+721mAh:145 Cycle 6
 Discharge...
I Believe that this is the same battery used in an old Motorola Timeport Cellphone that I purchased Dec. 7 2000. This phone was used for about 9 months durring which time it went for a swim in a lake, shorting out and overheating, but it did continue to work. It sat unused for about 2 years. (See the photos on the right side) Now, Oct. 2004, being some 3 years old I'm cycling it to see how it compaires to the above cells...
 Discharge 567mAh @0.7A :47 Charge+631:160 to 3.6v
 Discharge 562mAh @1.0A :33 Charge+493:138
 Discharge 503mAh @1.0A :29 Charge+450:133
 Discharge 457mAh @1.0A :27 Charge+450:146
 Discharge 477mAh @1.0A :28 Charge+442:135
 Discharge 462mAh @1.0A :27 Charge+596:138 to 3.7v
 Discharge 652mAh @1.0A :38 Charge+659:125
 Discharge 654mAh @1.0A :38 Charge+597:137
 Discharge 590mAh @1.0A :35 Charge+632:137
 Discharge 667mAh @1.0A :39 Charge+636:143
 Discharge 647mAh @1.0A :38 Charge+616:143