https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=69.228.204.183 2026-08-31T16:35:22Z User contributions MediaWiki 1.34.1 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Motor_controller&diff=6701 2007-04-12T20:21:35Z

<p>69.228.204.183: /* DC */</p> <hr /> <div>{{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> ===Contactor===<br /> Simplest controller - just a contactor (high current relay) to turn the power on or off. Could have more than one contactor and resistors to enable stepped speed control.<br /> <br /> ===DC===<br /> The most commonly used controllers - for DC motors<br /> popular manufacturers:<br /> * [http://www.curtisinst.com/Curtis Curtis]<br /> * [http://cafeelectric.com/ Zilla]<br /> <br /> Other manufacturers:<br /> * [http://www.belktronix.com Belktronix]<br /> * Dc Power Systems [http://www.dcpowersystems.com/r600fly.htm Raptor] (out of business?)<br /> * [[ZAPI H2]]<br /> <br /> '''Do it yourself''' <br /> * schematics: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/<br /> * OSMC (Open Source Motor Control) http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html and http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc<br /> <br /> See also [[DC to DC Converter]]<br /> <br /> ====Curtis-Killer====<br /> My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis&quot;-Killer&quot; DC controller is:<br /> : moved to [[Talk:Motor controller#Curtis-Killer DC controller]]<br /> <br /> ===AC===<br /> Controllers for AC motors<br /> * [http://www.acpropulsion.com/ AC Propulsion]<br /> * Vendor of Siemens AC motors and controllers http://www.metricmind.com/<br /> <br /> ==See Also==<br /> * [[WikiPedia:Motor controller]]<br /> Why are motor controllers so expensive [[Controllers Cost]]<br /> <br /> [[Category:BEV components]]</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Motor_controller&diff=6700 2007-04-12T20:18:43Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>{{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> ===Contactor===<br /> Simplest controller - just a contactor (high current relay) to turn the power on or off. Could have more than one contactor and resistors to enable stepped speed control.<br /> <br /> ===DC===<br /> The most commonly used controllers - for DC motors<br /> popular manufacturers:<br /> * [http://www.curtisinst.com/Curtis Curtis]<br /> * [http://cafeelectric.com/ Zilla]<br /> <br /> Other manufacturers:<br /> * [http://www.belktronix.com Belktronix]<br /> * Dc Power Systems [http://www.dcpowersystems.com/r600fly.htm Raptor] (out of business?)<br /> * [[ZAPI H2]]<br /> <br /> '''Do it yourself''' <br /> * schematics: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/<br /> * OSMC http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html and http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc<br /> <br /> See also [[DC to DC Converter]]<br /> <br /> ====Curtis-Killer====<br /> My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis&quot;-Killer&quot; DC controller is:<br /> : moved to [[Talk:Motor controller#Curtis-Killer DC controller]]<br /> <br /> ===AC===<br /> Controllers for AC motors<br /> * [http://www.acpropulsion.com/ AC Propulsion]<br /> * Vendor of Siemens AC motors and controllers http://www.metricmind.com/<br /> <br /> ==See Also==<br /> * [[WikiPedia:Motor controller]]<br /> Why are motor controllers so expensive [[Controllers Cost]]<br /> <br /> [[Category:BEV components]]</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Controllers_Cost&diff=6699 2007-04-12T20:15:38Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to design and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive?<br /> <br /> I'm far from the most qualified to answer this, but in a word: amps.<br /> <br /> Assuming you're talking about controlling a motor for a car, you're talking about switching at least a couple hundred amps thousands of times/second. Many systems are switching 500 or more amps.<br /> <br /> When you just want to switch a few amps, some fifty-cent mosfets will <br /> do the job. To switch the kind of current drawn by motors in cars, you <br /> need a device called an IGBT (a type of transistor).<br /> These cost more than a hundred bucks apiece and you probably would need several. On top of <br /> this, when you switch a motor on and off you generate voltage spikes <br /> which have to be &quot;absorbed&quot; and large diodes are used for this--these <br /> are not fifty cent items, either.<br /> <br /> All this current creates a lot of heat which means heatsinks which <br /> means some fancy way of attaching the IGBTs (and maybe the<br /> diodes) to some serious heat sink material. One of the Zilla controllers is water <br /> cooled, just to give you some idea of what we're talking about here.<br /> <br /> Then there's the parts to drive the IGBTs--these are not like &quot;logic <br /> level&quot; mosfets that can be driven with a micro--you need quite a bit <br /> of current to switch them, so now you're talking about driver <br /> circuitry (and components) for the IGBTs.<br /> <br /> And, of course, you have to connect this all together--you're not <br /> going to do it with solder and one-ounce copper-clad PCBs<br /> :-)<br /> <br /> Those connections have to withstand the current, the heat, be low <br /> resistance, be reliable, and mechanically strong because you're <br /> attaching some mighty big cables to those IGBTs. Take a look at the <br /> inside of a household breaker panel to get some idea of what's <br /> required and remember that those are typically designed for 200 amps <br /> (open one up in the hardware store).<br /> <br /> Then you have to package the whole thing up for the &quot;hostile&quot;<br /> environment it's going to run in: wet, cold, dust, heat.<br /> <br /> And the list goes on....not simple, not cheap, but doable. Again, I'm <br /> talking about controllers for cars--things that draw less current are <br /> easier. If you're really interested, you could subscribe to the evtech <br /> mailing list at www.evtech.org. There's a guy on that list that's <br /> going through the process of designing/building one now.<br /> <br /> --Steve</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Controllers_Cost&diff=6698 2007-04-12T20:14:39Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to design and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive?<br /> <br /> I'm far from the most qualified to answer this, but in a word: amps.<br /> <br /> Assuming you're talking about controlling a motor for a car, you're talking about switching at least a couple hundred amps thousands of times/second. Many systems are switching 500 or more amps.<br /> <br /> When you just want to switch a few amps, some fifty-cent mosfets will <br /> do the job. To switch the kind of current drawn by motors in cars, you <br /> need a device called an IGBT (a type of transistor).<br /> These cost more than a<br /> hundred bucks apiece and you probably would need several. On top of <br /> this, when you switch a motor on and off you generate voltage spikes <br /> which have to be &quot;absorbed&quot; and large diodes are used for this--these <br /> are not fifty cent items, either.<br /> <br /> All this current creates a lot of heat which means heatsinks which <br /> means some fancy way of attaching the IGBTs (and maybe the<br /> diodes) to some<br /> serious heat sink material. One of the Zilla controllers is water <br /> cooled, just to give you some idea of what we're talking about here.<br /> <br /> Then there's the parts to drive the IGBTs--these are not like &quot;logic <br /> level&quot; mosfets that can be driven with a micro--you need quite a bit <br /> of current to switch them, so now you're talking about driver <br /> circuitry (and components) for the IGBTs.<br /> <br /> And, of course, you have to connect this all together--you're not <br /> going to do it with solder and one-ounce copper-clad PCBs<br /> :-) Those<br /> connections have to withstand the current, the heat, be low <br /> resistance, be reliable, and mechanically strong because you're <br /> attaching some mighty big cables to those IGBTs. Take a look at the <br /> inside of a household breaker panel to get some idea of what's <br /> required and remember that those are typically designed for 200 amps <br /> (open one up in the hardware store).<br /> <br /> Then you have to package the whole thing up for the &quot;hostile&quot;<br /> environment it's going to run in: wet, cold, dust, heat.<br /> <br /> And the list goes on....not simple, not cheap, but doable. Again, I'm <br /> talking about controllers for cars--things that draw less current are <br /> easier. If you're really interested, you could subscribe to the evtech <br /> mailing list at www.evtech.org. There's a guy on that list that's <br /> going through the process of designing/building one now.<br /> <br /> --Steve</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Motor_controller&diff=6697 2007-04-12T20:12:43Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>{{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> ===Contactor===<br /> Simplest controller - just a contactor (high current relay) to turn the power on or off. Could have more than one contactor and resistors to enable stepped speed control.<br /> <br /> ===DC===<br /> The most commonly used controllers - for DC motors<br /> popular manufacturers:<br /> * [http://www.curtisinst.com/Curtis Curtis]<br /> * [http://cafeelectric.com/ Zilla]<br /> <br /> Other manufacturers:<br /> * [http://www.belktronix.com Belktronix]<br /> * Dc Power Systems [http://www.dcpowersystems.com/r600fly.htm Raptor] (out of business?)<br /> * [[ZAPI H2]]<br /> <br /> Do it yourself schematics: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/<br /> <br /> See also [[DC to DC Converter]]<br /> <br /> ====Curtis-Killer====<br /> My essential spec/feature list for a Curtis&quot;-Killer&quot; DC controller is:<br /> : moved to [[Talk:Motor controller#Curtis-Killer DC controller]]<br /> <br /> ===AC===<br /> Controllers for AC motors<br /> * [http://www.acpropulsion.com/ AC Propulsion]<br /> * Vendor of Siemens AC motors and controllers http://www.metricmind.com/<br /> <br /> ==See Also==<br /> * [[WikiPedia:Motor controller]]<br /> Why are motor controllers so expensive [[Controllers Cost]]<br /> <br /> [[Category:BEV components]]</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Generator_Emissions&diff=6696 2007-04-12T20:09:23Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a recent question or comment about genset APUs (Auxiliary Power Unit - this is a power generator in, or towed by the vehicle). So I thought that I would amend that response and provide some possibly useful information. Rather than repeating what's available in the archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some data to the discussion.<br /> <br /> ===Reducing Emissions===<br /> While I recognize that minimizing emissions isn't an important consideration for all EV hobbyists, many of us are interested in being clean or &quot;green.&quot; Others may find the comparison of at least academic interest.<br /> <br /> We've said here before several times that an EV with an APU genset produces appreciably greater emissions than an equivalent ICEV. However, seldom does anybody cite actual numbers. So, with a fair bit of handwaving and many (probably unfounded) assumptions, I've put together a rather questionable but perhaps useful comparison between 3 flavors of ICEVs that EVDL members might own, and a light passenger car conversion (Honda Civic, Geo Metro, etc.) EV powered by an APU. <br /> <br /> Any corrections for errors that I may have made are most welcome.<br /> <br /> First, let's look at EPA passenger car and light truck emissions standards.<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1 EPA limits '''(fully applicable to 1997 model year vehicles, 50k mile warranty required) :<br /> <br /> NMHC (nonmethane hydrocarbons) + NOx (gasoline) = 0.65 g/mi<br /> CO = 3.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1 ULEV EPA limits''' (from 2001, as I understand it, mandatory in CA and voluntary in 49 states; I don't know which vehicles meet this standard but they are probably all passenger cars and not &quot;light&quot; trucks) :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.24 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.7 g/mi<br /> <br /> And, for those who want to compare the cleanest ICEs (such as 2004 and later Toyota Prius), PZEV / light duty '''SULEV-II EPA limits''' :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.03 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Now, let's calculate our genset's emissions. We make several assumptions.<br /> <br /> 1. Our genset was made after 2000, when EPA's second tier regulations on small spark-ignition engines for portable equipment took effect. (Might have been 1999, I'm not sure I got that right.) <br /> <br /> 2. Our genset was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's not some cheap knockoff purchased at a tool fair for $300, and thus the manufacturer has made an effort to meet EPA standards.<br /> <br /> 3. A small, well-designed passenger car conversion EV requires about 10kW to travel a constant 60 mph on flat ground. Thus our genset can produce 10kW continously.<br /> <br /> 4. We are traveling at a constant 60 mph.<br /> <br /> 5. The genset is always operating at full load.<br /> <br /> 6. We neglect any effects of the genset's additional weight or aerodynamics on the efficiency of the EV.<br /> <br /> 7. We neglect losses from rectification of the genset's output and in the EV's charger and other electronics. The 10kW figure cited above is taken as the entire sum of the input.<br /> <br /> 8. Generator efficiency is 75%. On the net, I found a Honda genset with an 11hp engine (8.2kW) which has a rated full load output of 6kW. From this I deduce (possibly erroneously) that the generator in this genset is about 75% efficient. <br /> <br /> As I said, lots of assumptions. Corrections would be welcomed.<br /> <br /> EPA rates non-handheld engines for general duty service - including portable generators - not in grams of emissions per hour, but in grams per kiloWatt- hour. This is kiloWatt hours of &gt;&gt;engine output&lt;&lt;, not electrical output. <br /> Applying our 75% efficiency to the above 10kW, we find that our genset's engine has to produce a continous 13.3kW to keep the car moving at 60mph.<br /> <br /> Now, let's compute our genset's emissions from traveling 1000 miles at 60mph.<br /> <br /> '''EPA Tier 2 standards for non-handheld engines &gt; 225cc''' are :<br /> <br /> 12.1 g/kWh HC + NOx<br /> 11.2 g/kWh NMHC + NOx (note 1)<br /> 549 g/kWh CO<br /> <br /> Note 1 : I couldn't find the NMHC figure on the EPA website; this number came from Canadian standards, which the document claimed are harmonized with US EPA standards.<br /> <br /> To travel 1000 miles at 60 mph we will have to run our genset for 16.7 hours. We are using 13.3kW of engine output * 16.7hr = 213kWh from engine.<br /> <br /> Engine emissions per 1000mi = <br /> <br /> 11.3 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 2407g NMHC + NOx<br /> 549 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 116937g CO<br /> <br /> Dividing by 1000 we find that on average, in this very strictly defined situation, our clean, EPA qualified genset produces <br /> <br /> 2.4 g/mi NMHC + NOx<br /> 117 g/mi CO<br /> <br /> Compared to a pre-2001 passenger car (or most &quot;light&quot; trucks), operating at the very limit of EPA standards, our genset-driven EV produces : <br /> 270% more NMHC + NOx (3.7 times as much)<br /> 3800% more CO (39 times as much)<br /> <br /> Compared to a more recent Tier 1 ULEV passenger car, the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 900% more NMHC + NOx (10 times as much)<br /> 6800% more CO (69 times as much)<br /> <br /> And compared to a very clean passenger car (PZEV-SULEV II, such as 2004+ Toyota Prius), the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 7900% more NMHC + NOx (80 times as much)<br /> 11600% more CO (117 times as much)<br /> <br /> Now, some thoughts on fuel consumption. The assumption has been that a genset will yield poor returns in the MPG department. This may in fact turn out to be true, when all factors are considered (especially the extra weight and/or aerodynamics hit of the genset). But ignoring those figures, we find something interesting.<br /> <br /> I found this page which gives specs for a 9.7kW genset with a Honda GX-610<br /> engine:<br /> <br /> http://www.jobsite-generators.com/multiquip_portable_gas_generator_ga_9.7hz.html<br /> <br /> It weighs 349lb (!) and runs for 6.75 hours on its 10 gal gasoline tank. <br /> That's roughly 1.5 gph. The page doesn't specify whether this is at half load or full load, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume for the moment that it's at full load. <br /> <br /> If so, our 16.7 hour, 1000 mile trip will require 25gal of fuel, for an FE of 40mpg! This compares surprisingly well with the 48mpg overall I get with my 1995 Honda Civic VX ICE. <br /> <br /> Of course, in the real world this calculation may fall apart. Add the weight and aerodynamics hit (350lb on a trailer will affect a small EV), the possibility that an actual &quot;10kW&quot; genset couldn't supply that much power for several hours straight, and possibly a less efficient engine type - and it's hard to say what the real world mpg would be.<br /> <br /> <br /> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA<br /> EV List Administrator</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Generator_Emissions&diff=6695 2007-04-12T20:09:06Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a recent question or comment about genset APUs (Auxiliary Power Unit - this is a power generator in, or towed by the vehicle). So I thought that I would amend that response and provide some possibly useful information. Rather than repeating what's available in the archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some data to the discussion.<br /> <br /> ===Reducing Emmissions===<br /> While I recognize that minimizing emissions isn't an important consideration for all EV hobbyists, many of us are interested in being clean or &quot;green.&quot; Others may find the comparison of at least academic interest.<br /> <br /> We've said here before several times that an EV with an APU genset produces appreciably greater emissions than an equivalent ICEV. However, seldom does anybody cite actual numbers. So, with a fair bit of handwaving and many (probably unfounded) assumptions, I've put together a rather questionable but perhaps useful comparison between 3 flavors of ICEVs that EVDL members might own, and a light passenger car conversion (Honda Civic, Geo Metro, etc.) EV powered by an APU. <br /> <br /> Any corrections for errors that I may have made are most welcome.<br /> <br /> First, let's look at EPA passenger car and light truck emissions standards.<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1 EPA limits '''(fully applicable to 1997 model year vehicles, 50k mile warranty required) :<br /> <br /> NMHC (nonmethane hydrocarbons) + NOx (gasoline) = 0.65 g/mi<br /> CO = 3.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1 ULEV EPA limits''' (from 2001, as I understand it, mandatory in CA and voluntary in 49 states; I don't know which vehicles meet this standard but they are probably all passenger cars and not &quot;light&quot; trucks) :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.24 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.7 g/mi<br /> <br /> And, for those who want to compare the cleanest ICEs (such as 2004 and later Toyota Prius), PZEV / light duty '''SULEV-II EPA limits''' :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.03 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Now, let's calculate our genset's emissions. We make several assumptions.<br /> <br /> 1. Our genset was made after 2000, when EPA's second tier regulations on small spark-ignition engines for portable equipment took effect. (Might have been 1999, I'm not sure I got that right.) <br /> <br /> 2. Our genset was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's not some cheap knockoff purchased at a tool fair for $300, and thus the manufacturer has made an effort to meet EPA standards.<br /> <br /> 3. A small, well-designed passenger car conversion EV requires about 10kW to travel a constant 60 mph on flat ground. Thus our genset can produce 10kW continously.<br /> <br /> 4. We are traveling at a constant 60 mph.<br /> <br /> 5. The genset is always operating at full load.<br /> <br /> 6. We neglect any effects of the genset's additional weight or aerodynamics on the efficiency of the EV.<br /> <br /> 7. We neglect losses from rectification of the genset's output and in the EV's charger and other electronics. The 10kW figure cited above is taken as the entire sum of the input.<br /> <br /> 8. Generator efficiency is 75%. On the net, I found a Honda genset with an 11hp engine (8.2kW) which has a rated full load output of 6kW. From this I deduce (possibly erroneously) that the generator in this genset is about 75% efficient. <br /> <br /> As I said, lots of assumptions. Corrections would be welcomed.<br /> <br /> EPA rates non-handheld engines for general duty service - including portable generators - not in grams of emissions per hour, but in grams per kiloWatt- hour. This is kiloWatt hours of &gt;&gt;engine output&lt;&lt;, not electrical output. <br /> Applying our 75% efficiency to the above 10kW, we find that our genset's engine has to produce a continous 13.3kW to keep the car moving at 60mph.<br /> <br /> Now, let's compute our genset's emissions from traveling 1000 miles at 60mph.<br /> <br /> '''EPA Tier 2 standards for non-handheld engines &gt; 225cc''' are :<br /> <br /> 12.1 g/kWh HC + NOx<br /> 11.2 g/kWh NMHC + NOx (note 1)<br /> 549 g/kWh CO<br /> <br /> Note 1 : I couldn't find the NMHC figure on the EPA website; this number came from Canadian standards, which the document claimed are harmonized with US EPA standards.<br /> <br /> To travel 1000 miles at 60 mph we will have to run our genset for 16.7 hours. We are using 13.3kW of engine output * 16.7hr = 213kWh from engine.<br /> <br /> Engine emissions per 1000mi = <br /> <br /> 11.3 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 2407g NMHC + NOx<br /> 549 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 116937g CO<br /> <br /> Dividing by 1000 we find that on average, in this very strictly defined situation, our clean, EPA qualified genset produces <br /> <br /> 2.4 g/mi NMHC + NOx<br /> 117 g/mi CO<br /> <br /> Compared to a pre-2001 passenger car (or most &quot;light&quot; trucks), operating at the very limit of EPA standards, our genset-driven EV produces : <br /> 270% more NMHC + NOx (3.7 times as much)<br /> 3800% more CO (39 times as much)<br /> <br /> Compared to a more recent Tier 1 ULEV passenger car, the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 900% more NMHC + NOx (10 times as much)<br /> 6800% more CO (69 times as much)<br /> <br /> And compared to a very clean passenger car (PZEV-SULEV II, such as 2004+ Toyota Prius), the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 7900% more NMHC + NOx (80 times as much)<br /> 11600% more CO (117 times as much)<br /> <br /> Now, some thoughts on fuel consumption. The assumption has been that a genset will yield poor returns in the MPG department. This may in fact turn out to be true, when all factors are considered (especially the extra weight and/or aerodynamics hit of the genset). But ignoring those figures, we find something interesting.<br /> <br /> I found this page which gives specs for a 9.7kW genset with a Honda GX-610<br /> engine:<br /> <br /> http://www.jobsite-generators.com/multiquip_portable_gas_generator_ga_9.7hz.html<br /> <br /> It weighs 349lb (!) and runs for 6.75 hours on its 10 gal gasoline tank. <br /> That's roughly 1.5 gph. The page doesn't specify whether this is at half load or full load, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume for the moment that it's at full load. <br /> <br /> If so, our 16.7 hour, 1000 mile trip will require 25gal of fuel, for an FE of 40mpg! This compares surprisingly well with the 48mpg overall I get with my 1995 Honda Civic VX ICE. <br /> <br /> Of course, in the real world this calculation may fall apart. Add the weight and aerodynamics hit (350lb on a trailer will affect a small EV), the possibility that an actual &quot;10kW&quot; genset couldn't supply that much power for several hours straight, and possibly a less efficient engine type - and it's hard to say what the real world mpg would be.<br /> <br /> <br /> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA<br /> EV List Administrator</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Generator&diff=6694 2007-04-12T20:08:52Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>Why a generator is not effective for reducing emissions [[Generator Emissions]]</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Generator&diff=6693 2007-04-12T20:07:33Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a recent question or comment about genset APUs (Auxiliary Power Unit - this is a power generator in, or towed by the vehicle). So I thought that I would amend that response and provide some possibly useful information. Rather than repeating what's available in the archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some data to the discussion.<br /> <br /> ===Reducing Emmissions===<br /> While I recognize that minimizing emissions isn't an important consideration for all EV hobbyists, many of us are interested in being clean or &quot;green.&quot; Others may find the comparison of at least academic interest.<br /> <br /> We've said here before several times that an EV with an APU genset produces appreciably greater emissions than an equivalent ICEV. However, seldom does anybody cite actual numbers. So, with a fair bit of handwaving and many (probably unfounded) assumptions, I've put together a rather questionable but perhaps useful comparison between 3 flavors of ICEVs that EVDL members might own, and a light passenger car conversion (Honda Civic, Geo Metro, etc.) EV powered by an APU. <br /> <br /> Any corrections for errors that I may have made are most welcome.<br /> <br /> First, let's look at EPA passenger car and light truck emissions standards.<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1 EPA limits '''(fully applicable to 1997 model year vehicles, 50k mile warranty required) :<br /> <br /> NMHC (nonmethane hydrocarbons) + NOx (gasoline) = 0.65 g/mi<br /> CO = 3.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1 ULEV EPA limits''' (from 2001, as I understand it, mandatory in CA and voluntary in 49 states; I don't know which vehicles meet this standard but they are probably all passenger cars and not &quot;light&quot; trucks) :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.24 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.7 g/mi<br /> <br /> And, for those who want to compare the cleanest ICEs (such as 2004 and later Toyota Prius), PZEV / light duty '''SULEV-II EPA limits''' :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.03 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Now, let's calculate our genset's emissions. We make several assumptions.<br /> <br /> 1. Our genset was made after 2000, when EPA's second tier regulations on small spark-ignition engines for portable equipment took effect. (Might have been 1999, I'm not sure I got that right.) <br /> <br /> 2. Our genset was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's not some cheap knockoff purchased at a tool fair for $300, and thus the manufacturer has made an effort to meet EPA standards.<br /> <br /> 3. A small, well-designed passenger car conversion EV requires about 10kW to travel a constant 60 mph on flat ground. Thus our genset can produce 10kW continously.<br /> <br /> 4. We are traveling at a constant 60 mph.<br /> <br /> 5. The genset is always operating at full load.<br /> <br /> 6. We neglect any effects of the genset's additional weight or aerodynamics on the efficiency of the EV.<br /> <br /> 7. We neglect losses from rectification of the genset's output and in the EV's charger and other electronics. The 10kW figure cited above is taken as the entire sum of the input.<br /> <br /> 8. Generator efficiency is 75%. On the net, I found a Honda genset with an 11hp engine (8.2kW) which has a rated full load output of 6kW. From this I deduce (possibly erroneously) that the generator in this genset is about 75% efficient. <br /> <br /> As I said, lots of assumptions. Corrections would be welcomed.<br /> <br /> EPA rates non-handheld engines for general duty service - including portable generators - not in grams of emissions per hour, but in grams per kiloWatt- hour. This is kiloWatt hours of &gt;&gt;engine output&lt;&lt;, not electrical output. <br /> Applying our 75% efficiency to the above 10kW, we find that our genset's engine has to produce a continous 13.3kW to keep the car moving at 60mph.<br /> <br /> Now, let's compute our genset's emissions from traveling 1000 miles at 60mph.<br /> <br /> '''EPA Tier 2 standards for non-handheld engines &gt; 225cc''' are :<br /> <br /> 12.1 g/kWh HC + NOx<br /> 11.2 g/kWh NMHC + NOx (note 1)<br /> 549 g/kWh CO<br /> <br /> Note 1 : I couldn't find the NMHC figure on the EPA website; this number came from Canadian standards, which the document claimed are harmonized with US EPA standards.<br /> <br /> To travel 1000 miles at 60 mph we will have to run our genset for 16.7 hours. We are using 13.3kW of engine output * 16.7hr = 213kWh from engine.<br /> <br /> Engine emissions per 1000mi = <br /> <br /> 11.3 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 2407g NMHC + NOx<br /> 549 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 116937g CO<br /> <br /> Dividing by 1000 we find that on average, in this very strictly defined situation, our clean, EPA qualified genset produces <br /> <br /> 2.4 g/mi NMHC + NOx<br /> 117 g/mi CO<br /> <br /> Compared to a pre-2001 passenger car (or most &quot;light&quot; trucks), operating at the very limit of EPA standards, our genset-driven EV produces : <br /> 270% more NMHC + NOx (3.7 times as much)<br /> 3800% more CO (39 times as much)<br /> <br /> Compared to a more recent Tier 1 ULEV passenger car, the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 900% more NMHC + NOx (10 times as much)<br /> 6800% more CO (69 times as much)<br /> <br /> And compared to a very clean passenger car (PZEV-SULEV II, such as 2004+ Toyota Prius), the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 7900% more NMHC + NOx (80 times as much)<br /> 11600% more CO (117 times as much)<br /> <br /> Now, some thoughts on fuel consumption. The assumption has been that a genset will yield poor returns in the MPG department. This may in fact turn out to be true, when all factors are considered (especially the extra weight and/or aerodynamics hit of the genset). But ignoring those figures, we find something interesting.<br /> <br /> I found this page which gives specs for a 9.7kW genset with a Honda GX-610<br /> engine:<br /> <br /> http://www.jobsite-generators.com/multiquip_portable_gas_generator_ga_9.7hz.html<br /> <br /> It weighs 349lb (!) and runs for 6.75 hours on its 10 gal gasoline tank. <br /> That's roughly 1.5 gph. The page doesn't specify whether this is at half load or full load, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume for the moment that it's at full load. <br /> <br /> If so, our 16.7 hour, 1000 mile trip will require 25gal of fuel, for an FE of 40mpg! This compares surprisingly well with the 48mpg overall I get with my 1995 Honda Civic VX ICE. <br /> <br /> Of course, in the real world this calculation may fall apart. Add the weight and aerodynamics hit (350lb on a trailer will affect a small EV), the possibility that an actual &quot;10kW&quot; genset couldn't supply that much power for several hours straight, and possibly a less efficient engine type - and it's hard to say what the real world mpg would be.<br /> <br /> <br /> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA<br /> EV List Administrator</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Generator&diff=6692 2007-04-12T20:05:09Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a recent question or comment about genset APUs (Auxiliary Power Unit - this is a power generator in, or towed by the vehicle). So I thought that I would amend that response and provide some possibly useful information. Rather than repeating what's available in the archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some data to the discussion.<br /> <br /> ===Reducing Emmissions===<br /> While I recognize that minimizing emissions isn't an important consideration for all EV hobbyists, many of us are interested in being clean or &quot;green.&quot; Others may find the comparison of at least academic interest.<br /> <br /> We've said here before several times that an EV with an APU genset produces appreciably greater emissions than an equivalent ICEV. However, seldom does anybody cite actual numbers. So, with a fair bit of handwaving and many (probably unfounded) assumptions, I've put together a rather questionable but perhaps useful comparison between 3 flavors of ICEVs that EVDL members might own, and a light passenger car conversion (Honda Civic, Geo Metro, etc.) EV powered by an APU. <br /> <br /> Any corrections for errors that I may have made are most welcome.<br /> <br /> First, let's look at EPA passenger car and light truck emissions standards.<br /> <br /> Tier 1 EPA limits (fully applicable to 1997 model year vehicles, 50k mile warranty required) :<br /> <br /> NMHC (nonmethane hydrocarbons) + NOx (gasoline) = 0.65 g/mi<br /> CO = 3.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Tier 1 ULEV EPA limits (from 2001, as I understand it, mandatory in CA and voluntary in 49 states; I don't know which vehicles meet this standard but they are probably all passenger cars and not &quot;light&quot; trucks) :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.24 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.7 g/mi<br /> <br /> And, for those who want to compare the cleanest ICEs (such as 2004 and later Toyota Prius), PZEV / light duty SULEV-II EPA limits :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.03 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Now, let's calculate our genset's emissions. We make several assumptions.<br /> <br /> 1. Our genset was made after 2000, when EPA's second tier regulations on small spark-ignition engines for portable equipment took effect. (Might <br /> have been 1999, I'm not sure I got that right.) <br /> <br /> 2. Our genset was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's not some cheap knockoff purchased at a tool fair for $300, and thus the manufacturer has made an effort to meet EPA standards.<br /> <br /> 3. A small, well-designed passenger car conversion EV requires about 10kW to travel a constant 60 mph on flat ground. Thus our genset can produce 10kW continously.<br /> <br /> 4. We are traveling at a constant 60 mph.<br /> <br /> 5. The genset is always operating at full load.<br /> <br /> 6. We neglect any effects of the genset's additional weight or aerodynamics on the efficiency of the EV.<br /> <br /> 7. We neglect losses from rectification of the genset's output and in the EV's charger and other electronics. The 10kW figure cited above is taken as the entire sum of the input.<br /> <br /> 8. Generator efficiency is 75%. On the net, I found a Honda genset with an 11hp engine (8.2kW) which has a rated full load output of 6kW. From this I deduce (possibly erroneously) that the generator in this genset is about 75% efficient. <br /> <br /> As I said, lots of assumptions. Corrections would be welcomed.<br /> <br /> EPA rates non-handheld engines for general duty service - including portable generators - not in grams of emissions per hour, but in grams per kiloWatt- hour. This is kiloWatt hours of &gt;&gt;engine output&lt;&lt;, not electrical output. <br /> Applying our 75% efficiency to the above 10kW, we find that our genset's engine has to produce a continous 13.3kW to keep the car moving at 60mph.<br /> <br /> Now, let's compute our genset's emissions from traveling 1000 miles at 60mph.<br /> <br /> EPA Tier 2 standards for non-handheld engines &gt; 225cc are :<br /> <br /> 12.1 g/kWh HC + NOx<br /> 11.2 g/kWh NMHC + NOx (note 1)<br /> 549 g/kWh CO<br /> <br /> Note 1 : I couldn't find the NMHC figure on the EPA website; this number came from Canadian standards, which the document claimed are harmonized with US EPA standards.<br /> <br /> To travel 1000 miles at 60 mph we will have to run our genset for 16.7 hours. We are using 13.3kW of engine output * 16.7hr = 213kWh from engine.<br /> <br /> Engine emissions per 1000mi = <br /> <br /> 11.3 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 2407g NMHC + NOx<br /> 549 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 116937g CO<br /> <br /> Dividing by 1000 we find that on average, in this very strictly defined situation, our clean, EPA qualified genset produces <br /> <br /> 2.4 g/mi NMHC + NOx<br /> 117 g/mi CO<br /> <br /> Compared to a pre-2001 passenger car (or most &quot;light&quot; trucks), operating at the very limit of EPA standards, our genset-driven EV produces : <br /> 270% more NMHC + NOx (3.7 times as much)<br /> 3800% more CO (39 times as much)<br /> <br /> Compared to a more recent Tier 1 ULEV passenger car, the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 900% more NMHC + NOx (10 times as much)<br /> 6800% more CO (69 times as much)<br /> <br /> And compared to a very clean passenger car (PZEV-SULEV II, such as 2004+ Toyota Prius), the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 7900% more NMHC + NOx (80 times as much)<br /> 11600% more CO (117 times as much)<br /> <br /> Now, some thoughts on fuel consumption. The assumption has been that a genset will yield poor returns in the MPG department. This may in fact turn out to be true, when all factors are considered (especially the extra weight and/or aerodynamics hit of the genset). But ignoring those figures, we find something interesting.<br /> <br /> I found this page which gives specs for a 9.7kW genset with a Honda GX-610<br /> engine:<br /> <br /> http://www.jobsite-generators.com/multiquip_portable_gas_generator_ga_9.7hz.html<br /> <br /> It weighs 349lb (!) and runs for 6.75 hours on its 10 gal gasoline tank. <br /> That's roughly 1.5 gph. The page doesn't specify whether this is at half load or full load, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume for the moment that it's at full load. <br /> <br /> If so, our 16.7 hour, 1000 mile trip will require 25gal of fuel, for an FE of 40mpg! This compares surprisingly well with the 48mpg overall I get with my 1995 Honda Civic VX ICE. <br /> <br /> Of course, in the real world this calculation may fall apart. Add the weight and aerodynamics hit (350lb on a trailer will affect a small EV), the possibility that an actual &quot;10kW&quot; genset couldn't supply that much power for several hours straight, and possibly a less efficient engine type - and it's hard to say what the real world mpg would be.<br /> <br /> <br /> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA<br /> EV List Administrator</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Generator&diff=6691 2007-04-12T19:59:53Z

<p>69.228.204.183: created</p> <hr /> <div>I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a recent question or comment about genset APUs. So I thought that I would amend that response and provide some possibly useful information. Rather than repeating what's available in the archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some data to the discussion.<br /> <br /> While I recognize that minimizing emissions isn't an important consideration for all EV hobbyists, many of us are interested in being clean or &quot;green.&quot; <br /> Others may find the comparison of at least academic interest.<br /> <br /> We've said here before several times that an EV with an APU genset produces appreciably greater emissions than an equivalent ICEV. However, seldom does anybody cite actual numbers. So, with a fair bit of handwaving and many (probably unfounded) assumptions, I've put together a rather questionable but perhaps useful comparison between 3 flavors of ICEVs that EVDL members might own, and a light passenger car conversion (Honda Civic, Geo Metro,<br /> etc.) EV powered by an APU. <br /> <br /> Any corrections for errors that I may have made are most welcome.<br /> <br /> First, let's look at EPA passenger car and light truck emissions standards.<br /> <br /> Tier 1 EPA limits (fully applicable to 1997 model year vehicles, 50k mile warranty required) :<br /> <br /> NMHC (nonmethane hydrocarbons) + NOx (gasoline) = 0.65 g/mi<br /> CO = 3.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Tier 1 ULEV EPA limits (from 2001, as I understand it, mandatory in CA and voluntary in 49 states; I don't know which vehicles meet this standard but they are probably all passenger cars and not &quot;light&quot; trucks) :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.24 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.7 g/mi<br /> <br /> And, for those who want to compare the cleanest ICEs (such as 2004 and later Toyota Prius), PZEV / light duty SULEV-II EPA limits :<br /> <br /> NMHC + NOx = 0.03 g/mi<br /> CO = 1.0 g/mi<br /> <br /> Now, let's calculate our genset's emissions. We make several assumptions.<br /> <br /> 1. Our genset was made after 2000, when EPA's second tier regulations on small spark-ignition engines for portable equipment took effect. (Might <br /> have been 1999, I'm not sure I got that right.) <br /> <br /> 2. Our genset was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's not some cheap knockoff purchased at a tool fair for $300, and thus the manufacturer has made an effort to meet EPA standards.<br /> <br /> 3. A small, well-designed passenger car conversion EV requires about 10kW to travel a constant 60 mph on flat ground. Thus our genset can produce 10kW continously.<br /> <br /> 4. We are traveling at a constant 60 mph.<br /> <br /> 5. The genset is always operating at full load.<br /> <br /> 6. We neglect any effects of the genset's additional weight or aerodynamics on the efficiency of the EV.<br /> <br /> 7. We neglect losses from rectification of the genset's output and in the EV's charger and other electronics. The 10kW figure cited above is taken as the entire sum of the input.<br /> <br /> 8. Generator efficiency is 75%. On the net, I found a Honda genset with an 11hp engine (8.2kW) which has a rated full load output of 6kW. From this I deduce (possibly erroneously) that the generator in this genset is about 75% efficient. <br /> <br /> As I said, lots of assumptions. Corrections would be welcomed.<br /> <br /> EPA rates non-handheld engines for general duty service - including portable generators - not in grams of emissions per hour, but in grams per kiloWatt- hour. This is kiloWatt hours of &gt;&gt;engine output&lt;&lt;, not electrical output. <br /> Applying our 75% efficiency to the above 10kW, we find that our genset's engine has to produce a continous 13.3kW to keep the car moving at 60mph.<br /> <br /> Now, let's compute our genset's emissions from traveling 1000 miles at 60mph.<br /> <br /> EPA Tier 2 standards for non-handheld engines &gt; 225cc are :<br /> <br /> 12.1 g/kWh HC + NOx<br /> 11.2 g/kWh NMHC + NOx (note 1)<br /> 549 g/kWh CO<br /> <br /> Note 1 : I couldn't find the NMHC figure on the EPA website; this number came from Canadian standards, which the document claimed are harmonized with US EPA standards.<br /> <br /> To travel 1000 miles at 60 mph we will have to run our genset for 16.7 hours. We are using 13.3kW of engine output * 16.7hr = 213kWh from engine.<br /> <br /> Engine emissions per 1000mi = <br /> <br /> 11.3 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 2407g NMHC + NOx<br /> 549 g/kWh * 213 kWh = 116937g CO<br /> <br /> Dividing by 1000 we find that on average, in this very strictly defined situation, our clean, EPA qualified genset produces <br /> <br /> 2.4 g/mi NMHC + NOx<br /> 117 g/mi CO<br /> <br /> Compared to a pre-2001 passenger car (or most &quot;light&quot; trucks), operating at the very limit of EPA standards, our genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 270% more NMHC + NOx (3.7 times as much)<br /> 3800% more CO (39 times as much)<br /> <br /> Compared to a more recent Tier 1 ULEV passenger car, the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 900% more NMHC + NOx (10 times as much)<br /> 6800% more CO (69 times as much)<br /> <br /> And compared to a very clean passenger car (PZEV-SULEV II, such as 2004+ Toyota Prius), the genset-driven EV produces : <br /> <br /> 7900% more NMHC + NOx (80 times as much)<br /> 11600% more CO (117 times as much)<br /> <br /> Now, some thoughts on fuel consumption. The assumption has been that a genset will yield poor returns in the MPG department. This may in fact turn out to be true, when all factors are considered (especially the extra weight and/or aerodynamics hit of the genset). But ignoring those figures, we find something interesting.<br /> <br /> I found this page which gives specs for a 9.7kW genset with a Honda GX-610<br /> engine:<br /> <br /> http://www.jobsite-<br /> generators.com/multiquip_portable_gas_generator_ga_9.7hz.html<br /> <br /> It weighs 349lb (!) and runs for 6.75 hours on its 10 gal gasoline tank. <br /> That's roughly 1.5 gph. The page doesn't specify whether this is at half load or full load, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume for the moment that it's at full load. <br /> <br /> If so, our 16.7 hour, 1000 mile trip will require 25gal of fuel, for an FE of 40mpg! This compares surprisingly well with the 48mpg overall I get with my 1995 Honda Civic VX ICE. <br /> <br /> Of course, in the real world this calculation may fall apart. Add the weight and aerodynamics hit (350lb on a trailer will affect a small EV), the possibility that an actual &quot;10kW&quot; genset couldn't supply that much power for several hours straight, and possibly a less efficient engine type - and it's hard to say what the real world mpg would be.<br /> <br /> <br /> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA<br /> EV List Administrator</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Battery_charger&diff=6690 2007-04-12T19:59:16Z

<p>69.228.204.183: added generator</p> <hr /> <div>The '''Battery charger''' is the device which is responsible for charging the multiple batteries. It may include or be a part of the overall [[Battery Management System]] (BMS). Chargers can range from a manual operated variac perhaps with a timer, sometimes called a ''bad boy charger'', to a semi or fully automatic chargers which may also be intigrated into a fully automatic BMS.<br /> <br /> === Using a towed generator ===<br /> [[Generator]]<br /> <br /> ==Zivan==<br /> The Italian company '''Zivan''' makes a range of modestly priced 3-stage <br /> chargers in various voltages. They are based on switchmode power <br /> supplies, so they are fully transformer isolated, but are much lighter <br /> than the typical boat-anchor ferroresonant or conventional transformer <br /> charger.<br /> <br /> The Zivan NG1, available in outputs from 12 to 48 volts, is reportedly a <br /> very well-built unit with the price to match -- $573. It's a 1000 watt <br /> charger (about 27 amps at 36 volts). The older K5 is less robust, <br /> perhaps not as nicely built, with less capacity (15 amps at 36 volts) -- <br /> but it's cheaper at $461.<br /> <br /> See http://www.mcn.org/a/innEVations/chargers.html for information on <br /> the Zivan chargers.<br /> <br /> Ken Olum points out that three 12v chargers are usually cheaper than <br /> one 36v charger. That's true for simple, inexpensive utility chargers, <br /> but not so true for sophisticated 3-stage chargers. (Most 12v chargers <br /> you can buy in a hardware or auto parts dealer for $40 - $75 each are <br /> simple taper chargers.)<br /> <br /> One very interesting charger I've heard of is made by '''Statpower''' (see<br /> http://www.statpower.com/tc20.htm for one example). It's a true 3-<br /> stage charger that delivers 20 amps (they also have 10 and 40 amp <br /> models). <br /> <br /> Each charger is supposed to be able to charge up to three 12v <br /> batteries. It has 3 separate diode-isolated output terminals, though it's <br /> unclear to me whether the charge control actually senses and controls <br /> the batteries separately. Also, all 3 outputs share a common negative, <br /> so you'd have to disconnect your batteries from the tractor's series <br /> string before charging -- a real pain. You would probably want to use <br /> one separate unit for each 12 volts of the tractor's battery string.<br /> <br /> I don't have any personal experience with Statpower chargers, but they <br /> look pretty sophisticated.<br /> <br /> Statpower has an online store where they sell older refurbished units at <br /> about half price (I suppose one might wonder just what the failure rate <br /> is if they have lots of warranty returns to refurbish). A 20 amp dual-<br /> output charger is priced at Can$215 (US$139), pretty reasonable for <br /> such a unit. The 10 amp refurbished charger, which does not have the <br /> dual output feature, is priced at Can$152 (US$98). <br /> <br /> You would probably need three of either unit to charge 36 volts worth of <br /> batteries. If these were not refurbs, three of them would cost more <br /> than a 36 volt Zivan NG1 (but they would do a better job of keeping the <br /> different batteries at an equal state of charge than a single charger for <br /> the whole series string).<br /> <br /> There are 3-stage chargers made by '''Guest Corp.''' which actually have <br /> three separate chargers in one box. However, I have heard of reliability <br /> problems with these chargers. Too bad.<br /> <br /> Sorry that I also have no personal experience with the pulse units. One <br /> person whose judgement I value points out that nearly *every* charger <br /> is a pulse charger, because they all rectify AC and put out pulsating <br /> DC at 120 pulses per second. However, I have heard reports from <br /> other people I respect who say they have had good results from units <br /> like the Canpulse. I get the impression that these units operate <br /> independently of the charger.<br /> <br /> ==See Also==<br /> * [[WikiPedia:Battery charger]]<br /> <br /> [[Category:BEV components]]</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=E-Meter&diff=6689 2007-04-12T19:55:00Z

<p>69.228.204.183: added PakTrakr</p> <hr /> <div>An '''E-meter''' measures the state of charge of batteries.<br /> <br /> In a nutshell, it measures the current flow into and out of the battery pack. The thing is that the effective capacity of a lead-acid battery is dependent on the rate at which it's discharged. A simplified example:<br /> <br /> A 100 Ah (amp-hour) battery can provide 1 amp for 100 hours, or 2 amps for 50 hours, or 5 amps for 20 hours. That's the theory. In actuality, the more current you draw, the lower the actual capacity you get out. So, you may get 1 amp for 100 hours, but 5 amps for only 19 hours, and instead of 50 amps for 2 hours, you'd only get 50 amps for 1 hour. This is known as the [[Wikipedia:Peukert's Law|Peukert's Law]]. <br /> <br /> Anyhow, an e-meter not only measures the total amps that go into (charging) and out of (discharging) a battery, but takes into account the rate that it's used, and uses Peukert's empirical formula to calculate the effective charge, giving a more accurate indication of the battery's true state of charge (SOC).<br /> <br /> Short version: Battery Fuel Gauge.<br /> <br /> A commonly used E-Meter for electric vehicles it the Xantrex Link-10. http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/237/p/1/pt/5/product.asp<br /> The Link 10 is a state-of-the-art battery bank monitor that uses sophisticated microprocesor technology to report all significant battery information. <br /> <br /> Xantrex also make the Link-20 and the XBM e-meters.<br /> <br /> * Build it yourself battery monitor for multi-battery packs http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/ Includes plans schematics and details - by Tim Wong<br /> * Gordon Stallings battery monitor with schematics http://genki.home.ionet.net/BattMon/BattMonArticle.html<br /> * PakTrakr http://www.paktrakr.com/index.html monitors individual batteries in packs of multiple batteries<br /> * Smart Gauge (UK) http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/ Great technical info on how battery monitors work.<br /> * http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/rv-battery-monitor.html<br /> * http://www.micromediaplus.com/microlog_dmm-3_dmm-4.html<br /> * http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/cellmon/cellmon1.pdf schematic for battery low voltage threshold indicator<br /> <br /> [[Category:BEV components]]</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Help:Contents&diff=6687 2007-04-12T19:51:17Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>{{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> The '''Help:Contents''' page has information that we hope you will find helpful while interacting with this website.<br /> You will also find a general description of the interface, content, and how to contribute your own ideas, thoughts, and knowledge.<br /> Maybe you were looking for [[Help:Contents#Get_EV_related_help_from_SEVA_members| EV related help]].<br /> You can also [http://www.seattleeva.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new Post] any comments, questions, or suggestions you may have, or [[Talk:Main Page|View Comments]] on the [[Talk:Main Page]].<br /> <br /> == Sitemap - Main Menu ==<br /> <br /> The main menu is nested, so the '''Bold'' main headings will expand when you visit them. This allows us to pack more links into the menu and should help prevent visitors from getting lost.<br /> <br /> * '''[[Main Page]]''' - Takes you to the top of the website, just like the logo.<br /> ** [[SeattleEVA:Community Portal|Community]] - Links to other popular EV communities.<br /> ** [[Chapters|EAA Chapters]] - Links to all the other EAA chapter websites.<br /> ** [[SeattleEVA:Site_support|Donations]] - ''no page here''<br /> ** Help - ''{=-- '''You Are Here''' --=}''<br /> <br /> * '''[[Considerations|About SEVA]]''' - Is actually the [[Considerations]] page.<br /> ** [[History]] - SEVA History page and links to EV history resources.<br /> ** [[Mission]] - SEVA Mission is to '''Educate''', '''Demonstrate''', and '''Proliferate''' Electric Vehicles.<br /> ** [[News]] - SEVA news ''may be outdated, might merge with current events''.<br /> ** [[Members]] - SEVA members, their roles, and contact information.<br /> ** [[Current events]] - Upcoming and archived EVents in our area.<br /> ** [[Meetings Minutes]] - Summary of our meetings, directions to the meeting.<br /> ** [[Local Resources]] - List of local EV resources, dealers, parts, service.<br /> ** [[Local Charging]] - Local places to charge your EV.<br /> ** [[Photos|Photo Albums]] - Our Photo Albums.<br /> <br /> * '''Vehicles''' - ''no page here'' - Focus on various vehicles.<br /> ** [[For Sale]] - Resources to help you find an EV of your own.<br /> ** [[Other Resources|Resources]] - Other resources.<br /> ** [[Research]] - Research.<br /> ** Electric - [[Conversions]] - Conversions is what the EAA is all about.<br /> *** [[Production]] - Information about various production EVs.<br /> *** [[Racing]] - Information about high performance EV racing.<br /> ** Hybrid - [[Conversion Hybrids|Conversions]] - Again, we like Conversions!<br /> *** [[Production Hybrids]] - Information about various production Hybrids.<br /> *** [[PHEV Projects]] - Various projects to develop better Hybrids.<br /> *** [[EAA-PHEV]] - The EAA project for converting the[[Toyota Prius]].<br /> <br /> * '''EV Components'''<br /> ** '''[[Motor_controller| Motor Controllers]]'''<br /> ** '''[[Electric_motor| Electric Motors]]'''<br /> ** '''[[Batteries]]'''<br /> *** [[PbA]] - Lead-Acid - The most common battery in use for Conversions.<br /> *** [[Ni]] - Nickel - Another common traction pack chemistry.<br /> *** [[Li]] - Lithium - A very promising up and coming chemistry.<br /> *** [[HFC]] - Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which are actually just another type of battery.<br /> <br /> * '''Fuels''' - ''no page here'' - A new area for various fuel resources.<br /> ** [[Wind]] - The only fuel resource page so far.<br /> <br /> * '''[[Maillist]]''' - This is a special area, you can read and join the list from here.<br /> <br /> == What is all this Wiki stuff? ==<br /> Here's a walk through of everything that you see on this and other pages at this site.<br /> <br /> At the top and to the right side are functions for logging in, user preferences, watchlist, and a personal user page and user:talk page. If you are not logged in you will see a ''Create an account or log in'' link. Below but to the left side are links to the article and it's talk page, as well as edit, history and other functions if you're logged in. These are both mostly wiki things for contributing to this site, if that's not what you're doing then you can just ignore them for now.<br /> <br /> The left side begins at the top with our logo, clicking on it takes you back to the beginning of the site. Below it are the navigation links to the main pages at our site, which will be describe in the next section. Below that is the search function, useful for finding things. The toolbox is the last item on the page it has links to things like [[Special:Recentchanges|Recent changes]], which pages link to the current page, and other special things. At the very bottom you'll find information that pertain to this website.<br /> <br /> == EV related help from SEVA members ==<br /> You can contact [[Members]] of SEVA for help, so we should probably spruce up the members page with our various areas of expertise. The [[SeattleEVA:Community_Portal|Community]] page has links to many other online communities such as the [http://www.evdl.org EVDL ''( Electric Vehicle Discussion List )''] which is a great online maillist resource going back to [[EVDL_Maillist:2006./1./970|1991]] with many active posters and even more subscribers who just listen and learn.<br /> <br /> == How do I use the Wiki Website ==<br /> <br /> First you should [[Special:Userlogin|create an account]] and login. This way you'll see all the functions that we're going to learn about instead of just a few of them. The ''Wiki language'' is pretty easy and powerful and looks good as plain text unlike that scary html stuff that requires a special webpage editing program. If your curious you can find a page with some format you want to use, like an image or bullet points, and click edit, then click show preview and you'll see the page, and below it the raw un-wikified source for that page, which you can edit and preview again. Most of the basic editing functions are on a toolbar at the top of the edit box. They include ''(from left to right)'':<br /> <br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/nowiki&gt; '''Bold text''' &lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/nowiki&gt; - three quotes ' around the text.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; ''Italic text'' &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; - two quotes &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; around the text.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[Link title]] &lt;nowiki&gt;]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Internal link, it's [[red]] if the page doesn't exist yet, please don't create ''these two'' pages.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt; [http://www.seattleeva.org link title] &lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - External link, they have a little arrow and box icon.<br /> * ==Major Headline== - two equals = around the text makes it a Major Headline.<br /> ** ===Sub Header=== - three equals = around the text makes is a sub Headline.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Image:Example.jpg]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Images, which need additional [[Help:Images]].<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Media:Example.mp3]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Media, which need more Help:Media.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;math&gt;Insert formula here&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt; &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; &lt;/nowiki&gt; - Ignores wiki formatting.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;--~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Signature, for signing discussion on :Talk pages, like this. --[[User:Rjf|Rjf]] 01:42, 24 Aug 2005 (CDT)<br /> * ---- - This produces a horizontal bar, like the one below.<br /> ''You can usually hover the mouse over buttons to see what they do.''<br /> <br /> == Advanced Wiki Website Help ==<br /> <br /> Until I get around to adding more here you can get advanced help at the [[WikiPedia:Help:Contents]] page, keep in mind that the Wikipedia Help is extensive as this external site is an encyclopedia.</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Help:Contents&diff=6686 2007-04-12T19:46:25Z

<p>69.228.204.183: </p> <hr /> <div>{{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> The '''Help:Contents''' page has information that we hope you will find helpful while interacting with this website.<br /> You will also find a general description of the interface, content, and how to contribute your own ideas, thoughts, and knowledge.<br /> Maybe you were looking for [[Help:Contents#Get_EV_related_help_from_SEVA_members| EV related help]].<br /> You can also [http://www.seattleeva.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new Post] any comments, questions, or suggestions you may have, or [[Talk:Main Page|View Comments]] on the [[Talk:Main Page]].<br /> <br /> == Sitemap - Main Menu ==<br /> <br /> The main menu is nested, so the '''Bold'' main headings will expand when you visit them. This allows us to pack more links into the menu and should help prevent visitors from getting lost.<br /> <br /> * '''[[Main Page]]''' - Takes you to the top of the website, just like the logo.<br /> ** [[SeattleEVA:Community Portal|Community]] - Links to other popular EV communities.<br /> ** [[Chapters|EAA Chapters]] - Links to all the other EAA chapter websites.<br /> ** [[SeattleEVA:Site_support|Donations]] - ''no page here''<br /> ** Help - ''{=-- '''You Are Here''' --=}''<br /> <br /> * '''[[Considerations|About SEVA]]''' - Is actually the [[Considerations]] page.<br /> ** [[History]] - SEVA History page and links to EV history resources.<br /> ** [[Mission]] - SEVA Mission is to '''Educate''', '''Demonstrate''', and '''Proliferate''' Electric Vehicles.<br /> ** [[News]] - SEVA news ''may be outdated, might merge with current events''.<br /> ** [[Members]] - SEVA members, their roles, and contact information.<br /> ** [[Current events]] - Upcoming and archived EVents in our area.<br /> ** [[Meetings Minutes]] - Summary of our meetings, directions to the meeting.<br /> ** [[Local Resources]] - List of local EV resources, dealers, parts, service.<br /> ** [[Local Charging]] - Local places to charge your EV.<br /> ** [[Photos|Photo Albums]] - Our Photo Albums.<br /> <br /> * '''Vehicles''' - ''no page here'' - Focus on various vehicles.<br /> ** [[For Sale]] - Resources to help you find an EV of your own.<br /> ** [[Other Resources|Resources]] - Other resources.<br /> ** [[Research]] - Research.<br /> ** Electric - [[Conversions]] - Conversions is what the EAA is all about.<br /> *** [[Production]] - Information about various production EVs.<br /> *** [[Racing]] - Information about high performance EV racing.<br /> ** Hybrid - [[Conversion Hybrids|Conversions]] - Again, we like Conversions!<br /> *** [[Production Hybrids]] - Information about various production Hybrids.<br /> *** [[PHEV Projects]] - Various projects to develop better Hybrids.<br /> *** [[EAA-PHEV]] - The EAA project for converting the[[Toyota Prius]].<br /> <br /> * '''[[SeattleEVA:BEV_Components|EV Components]]'''<br /> ** '''[[Motor_controller| Motor Controllers]]'''<br /> ** '''[[Electric_motor| Electric Motors]]'''<br /> ** '''[[Batteries]]'''<br /> *** [[PbA]] - Lead-Acid - The most common battery in use for Conversions.<br /> *** [[Ni]] - Nickel - Another common traction pack chemistry.<br /> *** [[Li]] - Lithium - A very promising up and coming chemistry.<br /> *** [[HFC]] - Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which are actually just another type of battery.<br /> <br /> * '''Fuels''' - ''no page here'' - A new area for various fuel resources.<br /> ** [[Wind]] - The only fuel resource page so far.<br /> <br /> * '''[[Maillist]]''' - This is a special area, you can read and join the list from here.<br /> <br /> == What is all this Wiki stuff? ==<br /> Here's a walk through of everything that you see on this and other pages at this site.<br /> <br /> At the top and to the right side are functions for logging in, user preferences, watchlist, and a personal user page and user:talk page. If you are not logged in you will see a ''Create an account or log in'' link. Below but to the left side are links to the article and it's talk page, as well as edit, history and other functions if you're logged in. These are both mostly wiki things for contributing to this site, if that's not what you're doing then you can just ignore them for now.<br /> <br /> The left side begins at the top with our logo, clicking on it takes you back to the beginning of the site. Below it are the navigation links to the main pages at our site, which will be describe in the next section. Below that is the search function, useful for finding things. The toolbox is the last item on the page it has links to things like [[Special:Recentchanges|Recent changes]], which pages link to the current page, and other special things. At the very bottom you'll find information that pertain to this website.<br /> <br /> == EV related help from SEVA members ==<br /> You can contact [[Members]] of SEVA for help, so we should probably spruce up the members page with our various areas of expertise. The [[SeattleEVA:Community_Portal|Community]] page has links to many other online communities such as the [http://www.evdl.org EVDL ''( Electric Vehicle Discussion List )''] which is a great online maillist resource going back to [[EVDL_Maillist:2006./1./970|1991]] with many active posters and even more subscribers who just listen and learn.<br /> <br /> == How do I use the Wiki Website ==<br /> <br /> First you should [[Special:Userlogin|create an account]] and login. This way you'll see all the functions that we're going to learn about instead of just a few of them. The ''Wiki language'' is pretty easy and powerful and looks good as plain text unlike that scary html stuff that requires a special webpage editing program. If your curious you can find a page with some format you want to use, like an image or bullet points, and click edit, then click show preview and you'll see the page, and below it the raw un-wikified source for that page, which you can edit and preview again. Most of the basic editing functions are on a toolbar at the top of the edit box. They include ''(from left to right)'':<br /> <br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/nowiki&gt; '''Bold text''' &lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/nowiki&gt; - three quotes ' around the text.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; ''Italic text'' &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; - two quotes &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; around the text.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[Link title]] &lt;nowiki&gt;]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Internal link, it's [[red]] if the page doesn't exist yet, please don't create ''these two'' pages.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt; [http://www.seattleeva.org link title] &lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - External link, they have a little arrow and box icon.<br /> * ==Major Headline== - two equals = around the text makes it a Major Headline.<br /> ** ===Sub Header=== - three equals = around the text makes is a sub Headline.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Image:Example.jpg]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Images, which need additional [[Help:Images]].<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Media:Example.mp3]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Media, which need more Help:Media.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;math&gt;Insert formula here&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt; &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; &lt;/nowiki&gt; - Ignores wiki formatting.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;--~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Signature, for signing discussion on :Talk pages, like this. --[[User:Rjf|Rjf]] 01:42, 24 Aug 2005 (CDT)<br /> * ---- - This produces a horizontal bar, like the one below.<br /> ''You can usually hover the mouse over buttons to see what they do.''<br /> <br /> == Advanced Wiki Website Help ==<br /> <br /> Until I get around to adding more here you can get advanced help at the [[WikiPedia:Help:Contents]] page, keep in mind that the Wikipedia Help is extensive as this external site is an encyclopedia.</div>

69.228.204.183 https://www.seattleeva.org/mw/index.php?title=Help:Contents&diff=6685 2007-04-12T19:44:07Z

<p>69.228.204.183: /* Sitemap - Main Menu */</p> <hr /> <div>{{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> The '''Help:Contents''' page has information that we hope you will find helpful while interacting with this website.<br /> You will also find a general description of the interface, content, and how to contribute your own ideas, thoughts, and knowledge.<br /> Maybe you were looking for [[Help:Contents#Get_EV_related_help_from_SEVA_members| EV related help]].<br /> You can also [http://www.seattleeva.org/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new Post] any comments, questions, or suggestions you may have, or [[Talk:Main Page|View Comments]] on the [[Talk:Main Page]].<br /> <br /> == Sitemap - Main Menu ==<br /> <br /> The main menu is nested, so the '''Bold'' main headings will expand when you visit them. This allows us to pack more links into the menu and should help prevent visitors from getting lost.<br /> <br /> * '''[[Main Page]]''' - Takes you to the top of the website, just like the logo.<br /> ** [[SeattleEVA:Community Portal|Community]] - Links to other popular EV communities.<br /> ** [[Chapters|EAA Chapters]] - Links to all the other EAA chapter websites.<br /> ** [[SeattleEVA:Site_support|Donations]] - ''no page here''<br /> ** Help - ''{=-- '''You Are Here''' --=}''<br /> <br /> * '''[[Considerations|About SEVA]]''' - Is actually the [[Considerations]] page.<br /> ** [[History]] - SEVA History page and links to EV history resources.<br /> ** [[Mission]] - SEVA Mission is to '''Educate''', '''Demonstrate''', and '''Proliferate''' Electric Vehicles.<br /> ** [[News]] - SEVA news ''may be outdated, might merge with current events''.<br /> ** [[Members]] - SEVA members, their roles, and contact information.<br /> ** [[Current events]] - Upcoming and archived EVents in our area.<br /> ** [[Meetings Minutes]] - Summary of our meetings, directions to the meeting.<br /> ** [[Local Resources]] - List of local EV resources, dealers, parts, service.<br /> ** [[Local Charging]] - Local places to charge your EV.<br /> ** [[Photos|Photo Albums]] - Our Photo Albums.<br /> <br /> * '''Vehicles''' - ''no page here'' - Focus on various vehicles.<br /> ** [[For Sale]] - Resources to help you find an EV of your own.<br /> ** [[Other Resources|Resources]] - Other resources.<br /> ** [[Research]] - Research.<br /> ** Electric - [[Conversions]] - Conversions is what the EAA is all about.<br /> *** [[Production]] - Information about various production EVs.<br /> *** [[Racing]] - Information about high performance EV racing.<br /> ** Hybrid - [[Conversion Hybrids|Conversions]] - Again, we like Conversions!<br /> *** [[Production Hybrids]] - Information about various production Hybrids.<br /> *** [[PHEV Projects]] - Various projects to develop better Hybrids.<br /> *** [[EAA-PHEV]] - The EAA project for converting the[[Toyota Prius]].<br /> <br /> * [[BEV_Components|EV Components]]<br /> ** [[Motor_controller| Motor Controllers]]<br /> ** [[Electric_motor| Electric Motors]]<br /> ** [[Batteries]]<br /> *** [[PbA]] - Lead-Acid - The most common battery in use for Conversions.<br /> *** [[Ni]] - Nickel - Another common traction pack chemistry.<br /> *** [[Li]] - Lithium - A very promising up and coming chemistry.<br /> *** [[HFC]] - Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which are actually just another type of battery.<br /> <br /> * '''Fuels''' - ''no page here'' - A new area for various fuel resources.<br /> ** [[Wind]] - The only fuel resource page so far.<br /> <br /> * '''[[Maillist]]''' - This is a special area, you can read and join the list from here.<br /> <br /> == What is all this Wiki stuff? ==<br /> Here's a walk through of everything that you see on this and other pages at this site.<br /> <br /> At the top and to the right side are functions for logging in, user preferences, watchlist, and a personal user page and user:talk page. If you are not logged in you will see a ''Create an account or log in'' link. Below but to the left side are links to the article and it's talk page, as well as edit, history and other functions if you're logged in. These are both mostly wiki things for contributing to this site, if that's not what you're doing then you can just ignore them for now.<br /> <br /> The left side begins at the top with our logo, clicking on it takes you back to the beginning of the site. Below it are the navigation links to the main pages at our site, which will be describe in the next section. Below that is the search function, useful for finding things. The toolbox is the last item on the page it has links to things like [[Special:Recentchanges|Recent changes]], which pages link to the current page, and other special things. At the very bottom you'll find information that pertain to this website.<br /> <br /> == EV related help from SEVA members ==<br /> You can contact [[Members]] of SEVA for help, so we should probably spruce up the members page with our various areas of expertise. The [[SeattleEVA:Community_Portal|Community]] page has links to many other online communities such as the [http://www.evdl.org EVDL ''( Electric Vehicle Discussion List )''] which is a great online maillist resource going back to [[EVDL_Maillist:2006./1./970|1991]] with many active posters and even more subscribers who just listen and learn.<br /> <br /> == How do I use the Wiki Website ==<br /> <br /> First you should [[Special:Userlogin|create an account]] and login. This way you'll see all the functions that we're going to learn about instead of just a few of them. The ''Wiki language'' is pretty easy and powerful and looks good as plain text unlike that scary html stuff that requires a special webpage editing program. If your curious you can find a page with some format you want to use, like an image or bullet points, and click edit, then click show preview and you'll see the page, and below it the raw un-wikified source for that page, which you can edit and preview again. Most of the basic editing functions are on a toolbar at the top of the edit box. They include ''(from left to right)'':<br /> <br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/nowiki&gt; '''Bold text''' &lt;nowiki&gt;'''&lt;/nowiki&gt; - three quotes ' around the text.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; ''Italic text'' &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; - two quotes &lt;nowiki&gt;''&lt;/nowiki&gt; around the text.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[Link title]] &lt;nowiki&gt;]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Internal link, it's [[red]] if the page doesn't exist yet, please don't create ''these two'' pages.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[&lt;/nowiki&gt; [http://www.seattleeva.org link title] &lt;nowiki&gt;]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - External link, they have a little arrow and box icon.<br /> * ==Major Headline== - two equals = around the text makes it a Major Headline.<br /> ** ===Sub Header=== - three equals = around the text makes is a sub Headline.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Image:Example.jpg]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Images, which need additional [[Help:Images]].<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Media:Example.mp3]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Media, which need more Help:Media.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;math&gt;Insert formula here&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt; &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; &lt;/nowiki&gt; - Ignores wiki formatting.<br /> * &lt;nowiki&gt;--~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt; - Signature, for signing discussion on :Talk pages, like this. --[[User:Rjf|Rjf]] 01:42, 24 Aug 2005 (CDT)<br /> * ---- - This produces a horizontal bar, like the one below.<br /> ''You can usually hover the mouse over buttons to see what they do.''<br /> <br /> == Advanced Wiki Website Help ==<br /> <br /> Until I get around to adding more here you can get advanced help at the [[WikiPedia:Help:Contents]] page, keep in mind that the Wikipedia Help is extensive as this external site is an encyclopedia.</div>

69.228.204.183